Chapter 15 Volume 8-2

A: Yes, obviously. Su: Then, in order not to take detours in the dark when debating, should we first define desire and distinguish what is a necessary desire and what is an unnecessary desire? A: Okay, let’s do this. S: Some desires are unavoidable, and they may rightly be called "necessary."There are also some desires that are beneficial to us when they are satisfied, and I think these can also be said to be "necessary".Because the satisfaction of these two desires is what our nature needs.isn't it? A: Of course it is. SOCRATES: Can we then justly apply "necessary" to them?

A: Yes. Su: But some desires can be given up if we pay attention from an early age, and the existence of these desires is not good for us, and sometimes it is harmful.Can we rightly call this desire "unnecessary"? A: Yes. SOCRATES: Let us illustrate what we mean by an example of each. A: OK. Su: In order to maintain health and good health, we need to eat, and only food and meat are required. Are these desires necessary? A: I think it is necessary. Su: Eating is necessary in two respects. It is beneficial to us, and we cannot live without it. A: Yes. SOCRATES: As for the desire to eat meat, it is also necessary for the promotion of good health.

A: Of course. SOCRATES: Desires go beyond these, and require more variety, and those desires which are mostly correctable if one has been trained from childhood, and those desires which are harmful to the body, which hinder the attainment of wisdom and temperance of the mind, etc., can we not say that they are unnecessary? A: It couldn't be more correct. SOCRATES: Can we not call the first desire "wasteful" and the second "gainful"?Because the second desire is conducive to production. A: Really. SOCRATES: We think the same about lust and other desires. A: Yes. SOCRATES: The characters we just called drones are full of such pleasures and desires, that is, characters guided by unnecessary desires, while the so-called frugal oligarchs are dominated by necessary desires.

A: Indeed. SOCRATES: Let us return to the question of how the democratic character evolves from the oligarchic character.From what I see it's roughly like this: A: how? SOCRATES: When a young man, brought up from the stingy environment of which we have just spoken, tastes for the first time the sweetness of the drone, and the company of those rough and cunning people, only know how to find pleasure in every possible way.You have to be absolutely convinced that this is where his inner oligarchy turned into a democratic one. A: This is absolutely inevitable. SOCRATES: Revolutions take place in a city-state when a party is supported by sympathetic allies abroad.In the same way with us young people, when this or that desire in his mind is supported by foreign desires of the same or similar kind, a transformation of the mind takes place.Are we right?

A: Of course. Su: I assume that if there is an external force at this time, either from his father or other family members, to support the oligarchic elements in his heart, the result must be a conflict and struggle in his own heart. A: Indeed. SOCRATES: I think that sometimes the democratic element will yield to the oligarchic element, some of his desires will be destroyed, some will be expelled, the reverence and sense of piety in the soul of the young people will be promoted, and the inner order will be restored. A: Yes, sometimes this happens. SOCRATES: Other desires of the same kind as the ones that were expelled are sometimes quietly hatched and gradually multiplied through the failure of the father's upbringing.

A: Often so. SOCRATES: These draw him back to his old companions, and in secret copulation they reproduce, reproduce. A: Yes. Su: At last they took over the fortress of this young man's heart, and found that there was nothing in it, no ideals, no learning, no ambition--these are the best guardians and protectors of the hearts of the beloved of God. A: It is the most reliable guardian. SOCRATES: So false and arrogant theories and opinions came in, replaced them, and occupied his mind. A: Indeed. Su: At this time, the young man went back and lived openly with those old friends who ate Wangyouguo.If his family and relatives give aid to the frugal element in his soul, the intruder will immediately close the gate of the fortress of his soul and prevent reinforcements from entering.Nor did they allow him to listen to the counsel of a good teacher and friend.They would triumph in his inner conflicts, call out shame as a fool and a fool, and expel;

It is "inferior" to describe moderate and orderly consumption as "out of the world"; They gang up with unprofitable and harmful desires, and drive these virtues out of the country. A ① epic "Odyssey" IX 82 below. ② Refers to the above-mentioned "false and arrogant theories and opinions": it is true. SOCRATES: They* have swept away the above-mentioned virtues from the heart of this young man. ①It is still those false and arrogant opinions. clean, it prepares the conditions for the entry of other elements; and when they lead the procession of arrogance, indulgence, luxury, and shamelessness at the head of a splendid procession of garlands, they praise and call arrogance Courtesy, indulgence is liberty, extravagance is generosity, shamelessness is bravery.Do you agree with me that this is how a young man, bred from those necessary desires, degenerates into an unscrupulous villain, indulging in unnecessary, useless desires?

A: Yes, you made it very clear. SOCRATES: I imagine that, during the rest of his life, he will equally spend money, time, and toil on unnecessary desires as much as on necessary ones.If he is fortunate enough not to be impulsive for a long time, and as he grows older, his spirit gradually stabilizes, allowing some of the exiled elements to return one after another, and the invaders will be suppressed.He will establish equality among the various pleasures, whichever pleasure is his turn under complete control, let that pleasure be satisfied, and then take turns in turn, with equal opportunities, and all kinds of pleasures will be satisfied.

A: Absolutely. SOCRATES: If he were told that some pleasures arise from noble, good desires, which should be encouraged and satisfied, and that some pleasures arise from base, bad desires, which should be controlled and suppressed, he would turn a deaf ear to this, and would not open the fortress gates to the truth. Open.He would shake his head and say that all pleasures are equal and should be treated with equal respect. A: His psychology and behavior are indeed like this. S: As a matter of fact, day after day he indulged in the joy of his turn.One day is drinking, women, and singing, and the next is drinking water and eating a strictly prescribed diet; the first day is intense physical exercise, the second is idleness, laziness and neglect; and then, for a period of time, I study philosophy again.He often wants to engage in politics, and often has a whim, jumping up and doing what he thinks of.Sometimes he was ambitious and concentrated all his efforts on military affairs, and at other times he concentrated on making a fortune in business.His life was disorderly and without temperance.He thinks his way of life is happy, free, and happy, and he wants to stick to it to the end.

A: Your description of the life of an egalitarian believer is excellent. SOCRATES: I do think that this kind of man is the most diverse man with the greatest number of habits, just as the multifaceted complexity of the democratic city-state is. This kind of person is also colorful, gorgeous, envied by many men and women, and contains the most institutions and patterns of life. A: Indeed. SOCRATES: Then this democratic individual corresponds to a democratic system, and it is appropriate for us to call him a democrat.Let's just settle down like this, shall we? A: Okay, let's settle it down.

SOCRATES: Now there is only one of the best political institutions and the best people to describe, and that is tyranny and tyranny. A: Indeed. SOCRATES: Then, my dear Admanthus, how did tyranny arise?From my point of view, it is clear that this comes out of democracy. A: This is very clear. SOCRATES: Then tyranny arose from democracy, did it not come from it in the same way that democracy arose from oligarchy? A: Please explain. SOCRATES: It seems to me that the good that oligarchy considers and the foundation upon which it is built is wealth, is it not? A: Yes. Su: The reason for its failure is that it is too greedy for wealth. It does not care about everything else in order to make money and get rich. A: Really. Su: Then, does democracy also have its own basis for goodness, and its excessive pursuit of this thing led to its collapse? A: What are you talking about? Sue: Freedom.You may have heard it said that this is the greatest virtue of a democracy.For this reason, too, it is the only city-state in which free-spirited people like to make their homes. A: I have heard this saying, and I have heard it a lot. Su: Then, as I just said, the result of excessive pursuit of freedom regardless of everything destroys the foundation of a democratic society and leads to the need for totalitarian politics. A: How come? SOCRATES: I imagine that in a democratic city-state, because of its desire for freedom, it is possible for some bad people to become leaders, and they are deceived by them, drinking too much wine, and getting drunk.And if decent leaders want to be a little restraint, instead of being too indulgent, the society will rise up and accuse them, call them oligarchs, and demand that they be punished. A: This is exactly what a democratic society does. SOCRATES: And those who obey the authorities and obey their orders are said to be willing slaves, worthless, and reviled.And those who are in power are like ordinary people, and the people are like those in power, such people are praised and respected in both public and private situations.Is not freedom to extremes inevitable in such a country? A: Of course it is. SOCRATES: My friends, this anarchism must still penetrate into private domestic life, and finally into animals! A: What do you mean? SOCRATES: Oh, the current fashion is that the father tries to act like a child, and even fears his own son, and the son is equal to the father, neither respecting nor fearing his parents, as if in this way he is a free man.Moreover, the foreign dependent considers himself equal to the native citizen, and the citizen considers himself equal to the dependent; the foreigner and the native are no different from each other. A: These situations do exist. Su: There are indeed.There are also some similarly boring situations.Teachers are afraid of students and cater to students, but students ignore teachers and childcare workers.Generally speaking, young people pretend to be old people, stand up to each other, and speak with eloquence, while the older generation follow the young people, talking and laughing, with a modest attitude, acting like young people, and worrying about being hated and terrible by them. A: What you said is true. SOCRATES: In such a country there is freedom to the extreme.You see slaves of both sexes who are bought are as free as the masters who pay for them, not to mention complete equality and liberty between men and women. A: Shall we, then, "speak freely," as Aeschylus said? ① ① See "Residual Chapter" 35! " Sue: Of course.No one would believe it unless they saw it with their own eyes. Even the animals raised by people are much more free in this kind of city-state than in other city-states.Dogs have "become like their mistresses" in exactly the same way as the proverb says, so donkeys and horses are accustomed to bump into people here and there in the street with complete freedom, if you don't give way to them.Everything is full of free spirit. ① There is a proverb that says: "If there is such a mistress, there will be such a maid." A: You told me, I already knew.This happens to me a lot out of town. SOCRATES: All this together makes the souls of the citizens so sensitive that they cannot stand any suggestion of restraint, and are ready to throw a fit of rage.In the end, as you know, they really don't want anyone to control them, and they don't even worry about the law, whether it's written or unwritten. A: Yes, I know. SOCRATES: So, my friend, I think this is the root from which tyranny arises, a good, strong root. A: It is indeed a strong and powerful root, but what happened afterwards? SOCRATES: It is the same malady that arose out of the oligarchy and eventually destroyed it, and that same malady—which is more widespread in democracies, and which is made stronger by laissez-faire—serves democracy. "Extreme things will be reversed", this is the truth.The weather is like this, the plants are like this, the animals are like this, and the political society is especially like this. A: Of course. SOCRATES: Extreme liberty, whether in the individual or in the state, can result in nothing but extreme slavery. A: That's right. SOCRATES: Thus, perhaps, tyranny can only develop from democracy.Extreme terrible slavery, I think, springs from extreme freedom. A: This is very logical. SOCRATES: But I believe that is not what you are asking.What you're asking is what's going on in democracies that enslaves or dominates democracies as it does in oligarchies. A: Exactly. SOCRATES: You always remember that I told you that there is a class of lazy and wasteful people, in which the strong are at the head and the weak are at the helm.I compare them to drones, the leader to the stinger, and the follower to the stingless. A: Very appropriate metaphor. SOCRATES: When these two kinds of people appear in the city-state, they will cause chaos, just as mucous and bile in the human body cause chaos.A good physician and a good legislator, therefore, must look out early on against both.Like an experienced beekeeper, first prevent them from growing, and if they have grown, get rid of them as soon as possible, and completely eradicate them together with the nest. A: Really, it must be like this. SOCRATES: Then, in order that we may see our object more clearly, let me proceed as follows! A: How to proceed? SOCRATES: Let us theoretically divide a democratic state into three parts according to its actual structure.We have said that the first part is often no less than in an oligarchic society because it is left to develop. A: Let's just say that. SOCRATES: It is more violent in democracies than in oligarchies. A: How come? Su: In the oligarchic society, these people are despised and do not hold power, so they lack training and strength.In a democratic society this group of people is in a dominant position, with few exceptions.Among them, the most powerful part, they are the ones who speak and do things. The rest sat behind the pulpit, hustling and chirping to steal the talk, keeping people from speaking.So in a democracy everything (with a few exceptions) is in their hands. A: That's true. SOCRATES: And there is a second part, this kind of person pops up from the masses at any time. A: What kind of person? Su: When everyone is pursuing wealth, most of them who are the most orderly and frugal by nature become the biggest millionaires. A: Often so. Su: They are the most abundant and convenient place to supply the drones with honey. A: There is no oil and water to be squeezed out of the poor. Su: The so-called rich are the supporters of the drones. A: Absolutely. Su: The third type of people is probably the so-called "common people".They are self-sufficient, do not participate in political activities, and have little property.In a democracy this is the majority. If gathered together, the power is the greatest. ① "Civilian", δμB (Demos). A: Yes, but they don't gather very often unless they can share honey. Sue: They will share.Their chiefs plundered the rich, took the largest portion of it for themselves, and distributed the leftovers to the common people. A: Yes, they have shared such benefits. SO: So I think those who were robbed, had to speak at the Congress or take other possible actions to defend their interests. A: How could they not? SOCRATES: So they were accused by the opposition, accused of being against the populace, of being oligarchs, although in fact they had no intention of reforming at all. A: That's true. SOCRATES: And finally they saw that the populace tried to hurt them (not out of intention, but out of misunderstanding, out of wanting to hurt them because of malicious slanderous rumors spread by bad leaders), so they really had to become oligarchs (Not voluntarily, but also the result of drone stings). A: Exactly. Su: Then the two factions reported each other, went to court, and tried each other. A: Indeed. Su: In this kind of struggle, the common people always push out someone to take the lead, to be their protector, and at the same time they cultivate him to increase his prestige. A: Yes, usually. S: So it can be seen that when tyranny emerges, it can only arise from the root of "protection". A: Very clear. SOCRATES: What is the point of a patron becoming a tyrant? —Isn't the point clear when he behaves like the story we've heard about the sanctuary of Lucian Zeus in Arcadia? A: What kind of story is that? SOCRATES: The story says that if a man eats even a small piece of human flesh mixed with other sacrifices, he will inevitably become a wolf.You must have heard the story, right? A: Yes, I've heard of it. SOCRATES: The same is true of what the leaders of the people do.He controls a credulous populace, irresistibly wants to shed blood; he falsely accuses others, brings them to court, murders them, licks the blood of their fellow-creatures viciously; or banishes them, or condemns them to death; , or divide the land.In the end, this kind of person was either killed by the enemy himself, or turned from a man into a jackal and became a tyrant.Isn't this inevitable? A: This is absolutely inevitable. SOCRATES: This is the kind of leader who leads a faction against the rich. A: That kind of person. SOCRATES: It could also be that he was exiled, and then, despite the objections of his political enemies, he returned, a true tyrant. A: Obviously possible. S: If there is no way to get the people to expel him or kill him through the prosecution, they will organize a secret society to assassinate him. A: This kind of thing happens often. SOCRATES: And then there is the notorious plot: every tyrant at this stage asks the people to agree to him setting up a guard to defend himself, the defender of the people. A: Really. SOCRATES: I think the people will agree to his request, unsuspecting, only worried about his safety. A: That's true too. SOCRATES: Now is the time for anyone who has money and is suspected of being an enemy of the people to act in accordance with the oracle given to Clausus. ① King of Lydia, famous for his wealth. "fleeing along the stony banks of Hermes, He does not stay, is not shy, and is not afraid of being laughed at for being cowardly. "① ① Herodotus "History" i, 55. A: Because he will never have another chance to be shy. SOCRATES: If he is caught, I think he must die. A: Yes, you must die. Su: At this moment, it is very clear that the protector was not knocked to the ground and "spread his limbs"①, but he defeated many opponents, seized the supreme power of the country, and changed from a protector to a full-fledged Tyrant dictator. A: This is the inevitable end. ① "Iliad" XVI, 776.Cebriones, Hector's charioteer, was killed by Petroklos.The stretched body was lying on all fours on the ground. SOCRATES: Shall we describe the happiness of this man and the happiness of the country that produced him? A: Yes, let's describe it! Su: In his early days, this man was all smiles to everyone, he greeted everyone, he did not consider himself a monarch, he responded to every request in public and private, forgave the debts of the poor, distributed land to common people and his entourage, and gave people everywhere. Impress with amiability. A: Certainly. Su: But, I think, when he has reached a certain understanding with his political opponents who were exiled abroad, and some uncompromising ones have been eliminated by him, he no longer has internal worries.At this time, he always started a war first, so that the people needed a leader. A: Very likely. Su: Besides, since the people are impoverished because of military expenses, and are busy running around to make a living, it is unlikely that they will have the time to rebel against him, right? A: Obviously yes. SOCRATES: Also, if he suspects that there are people who are free-thinking and unwilling to submit to his rule, he will find excuses, send them into the hands of the enemy, and kill them with the sword.For all these reasons, war is always bound to be waged by every tyrant. A: Yes, he must do so. SOCRATES: Wouldn't he be more likely to arouse civil disapproval by doing this? A: Of course. SOCRATES: It is probable that some of those who helped him gain power in the past and are now sharing it with him, who disapprove of his actions, and who openly comment on him and discuss with each other, happen to be some of the most What about the brave.isn't it? A: Very likely. SOCRATES: Then if he, as a tyrant, wants to retain his power, he must get rid of all such people, useful or not, and friends or foes. A: This is obvious. SOCRATES: Therefore, he must have a keen eye to see who is the bravest, who is the most powerful, who is the wisest, who is the richest; until they are eradicated. A: What a wonderful cleanup! Su: Yes.It's just that this cleansing is the opposite of what doctors do to the human body. Physicians remove the worst and retain the best, while tyrants remove the opposite. A: You know, if he wants to keep his power, it seems he has to. SOCRATES: Either he dies, or he lives with his companions—mostly worthless people, all of whom hate him—he must make a favorable choice between the two. A: This is his destiny! Su: The more unpopular his actions are, the more he will continue to expand his guard, and the more he will use this guard as his absolutely reliable tool.isn't it? A: Of course it is. S: So, who is reliable?Where was he going to find them? A: As long as he pays the salary, they will automatically fly here in droves. SOCRATES: By the dog, I think, you're talking about drones again, a swarm of foreign mottled drones. A: You guessed right. Su: But doesn't he want to recruit some new recruits on the spot? A: How to do it? SOCRATES: Rob the slaves of the citizens, free them, and recruit them into his guard. A: It is true.They will be the most loyal members of the guard. SOCRATES: How enviable the tyrant's fortune is if, after he has wiped out his early supporters, these are his friends and the faithful guards he must employ! A: Well, that's how it works. SOCRATES: At this moment, I think, all these new citizens who are close to the tyrant praise him, while the decent people all loathe him and shun him. A: Of course. SOCRATES: Tragedy is considered wise, and in this respect Euripides is considered superior to others.It's not for nothing. A: Why? SOCRATES: Because Euripides said, among other meaningful things, that "a tyrant is wise who has wise men as his friends." This obviously means that these people around the tyrant are wise men. A: He also said, "The tyrant is like a god," and he said many other things in praise of the tyrant.Many other poets have said the same thing. SOCRATES: So the tragic poets, being as wise as they are, will forgive us and those who have the same state system as ours, and not allow them to enter our country, since they sing in praise of the tyranny. A: I think the wise men among them will forgive us. SOCRATES: I imagine that they will travel to other countries, hire actors, and use their beautiful voices to preach to the audience assembled in the theater, and make them turn to tyranny or democracy. A: Yes. S: For this they will be paid and honored.It was to be expected, chiefly from the side of the tyrant, and secondarily from the side of the democratic system.But in climbing the mountain of political institutions, the higher they climb, the more they sink in reputation, as if out of breath and unable to climb any higher. A: Very similar. SOCRATES: However, this is a digression, and we must return to the present question.We have just been speaking of the tyrant's personal guard, a fine, numerous, motley and variable army.How is this army maintained? A: It is self-evident that if the city-state has temple property, the tyrant will use it until it is exhausted; secondly, use the property of the political opponents he has eliminated; the people are required to pay less money. SOCRATES: What if these resources are exhausted? A: Evidently his father's property will be used to support him and his guests and companions. Su: I see.You mean the commoners who raised him now have to support his gang. A: He had to. SOCRATES: If the people object that it is unjust for a son to be supported by his father when he is of age, on the contrary, it is only fair for a son to support his father; that they raised him in the past, not to support him when he becomes a great man, They themselves were enslaved by their own slaves, and had to maintain him and his slaves and that unnamed band of foreign mercenaries, but wanted to be free from the rich and the so-called elite under his protection. Ruler, and now they order him and his gang to leave the country as a father orders his son and his cronies to leave the family—if so, what do you think? A: At this time, the people will soon see clearly what kind of beast they have bred and raised.He's strong enough, there's no way they can get him out. Su: What did you say?Do you say that the tyrant dared to resort to violence against his father, the people, and that he would beat them if they did not yield? A: Yes, after he disarmed them. SOCRATES: You see that the tyrant is a patricide, a wicked caretaker of old people. In fact we have here a true tyranny, outspoken and outspoken. The people found themselves, as the saying goes, jumping out of the frying pan and into the kang; instead of being enslaved by free men, they were enslaved by slaves; In painful slavery. A: This is indeed the case. SOCRATES: Well, I think by now we have good reason to say that we have adequately described how democracy turns into tyranny, and what the nature of tyranny is.Yes or no? A: Yes.