Chapter 14 Volume 8-1

Su: Very well, Glaucon, here we all agree: a country with a very ideal arrangement must have women, children, and all education in common. Regardless of wartime or normal times, men and women do all kinds of things the same.Their kings must be those who have proved to be both civil and military. G: We agree on these. SOCRATES: Next, we have also agreed that the governor, once appointed, is to be quartered with troops in the kind of barracks we have described; here everything is public and nothing is private.Do you remember what we agreed they should have in addition to the aforementioned barracks?

G: Yes, I remember.We originally thought that they should not have the things that ordinary people have now.But because they have to train for combat and also be Dharma protectors, they need to get a year's support from others every year as a kind of due reward for protecting the whole country. Su: You are right.We've said all that has been said about this. Please tell me, where did we leave this question?Let's get back to the topic and get down to business. Ge: To return to the present question, it was not difficult at that time (or just now).Suppose at that time you have described the country, and go on to claim that the kind of country you describe, and the corresponding kind of individual, is good, although we now see that you could have described it better.Anyway, you just said that if this country is right, all other countries must be wrong.I still remember that you said that there are four other national systems. These four national systems are worth examining their shortcomings and examining their corresponding representatives.When we have clarified these questions and reached a consensus on which are the best and worst people, we can determine whether the best people are the happiest and the worst people are the happiest. Most painful; or, is it just the other way around?When I asked which of the four constitutions you had in mind, Polemachos and Ademantus immediately intervened, and you repeated the story from the beginning to the present.

Sue: Your memory is really amazing! G: Well, let's have another round like wrestling.Please tell me what you were trying to say when I asked the same question. Sue: Do my best. Ge: I really really want to hear from you. What do you mean by the four political systems? Sue: It's not difficult.The four systems I refer to are precisely the four listed below with generic names.The first was called the Spartan and Cretan regime, and was widely admired. The second is called oligarchy, the rule of a few, second in honor, and much harm.The third is called democracy, which followed the oligarchy and was in opposition to it.Finally, the fourth, noble tyranny, distinct from all the three preceding, is the last scourge of the city-state.Can you name any other regime?The so-called other kinds of political system, I mean can constitute a special kind.There were hereditary monarchies, purchased kingdoms, and all other similar political institutions in between.There seem to be more such small states among the barbarians than among the Greeks.

G: Many bizarre political systems have indeed been heard of. SOCRATES: Well, you must know that there are as many different types of human character as there are different types of regimes.Do not think that political institutions are produced from wood or stone.No, political institutions spring from the habits of the citizens of the city; and the inclination of habits determines the direction of all others. G: Institutions arise precisely from custom and nothing else. SOCRATES: Then, if there are five political systems, there should be five individual minds. G: Of course. SOCRATES: We have described the people who correspond to the aristocracy or the goodman, and we have rightly said that they are good and just.

G: We've already described it. SOCRATES: Then, let us consider the inferior ones.One is the competitive and fame-seeking people, who correspond to the Spartan-type system; in descending order: oligarchs, democrats, and tyrants.In this way, after we examine the most unjust kind of person, we can compare him with the most just person, and finally find out which one is happy and which is painful between the purely just person and the purely unjust person?From then on, we can either listen to Thrasymachus and take the path of injustice, or believe our present discourse and take the path of justice.

G: In any case, we must do this next step. Su: Let us examine the moral character of the state system first, and then examine the moral character of the individual, because the character of the state is easier to see than the character of the individual. Let us now, therefore, examine first that honor-loving regime; we find no other term in the Greek, and we must call it the government of honor or the regime of honor. We will then examine this individual in relation to this institution.Secondly, we examine the oligarchy and oligarchic individuals; next we examine the democratic regime and democratic individuals; fourth, we come to a country ruled by a tyrant to investigate, and then look at the tyrant's individual mind.So we can try to correctly judge the problems we face.

Do you think it's okay to do this? G: I would at least say that this is a research method and judgment method that is very consistent with the argumentation process. Su: Good.So, let's talk about how the honor system came out of the aristocracy.I think one thing is obvious.Changes in the political system are all caused by discord in the leadership.If they are united, even if there is little agreement, change in the political system is impossible. G: It's true. SOCRATES: So, Glaucon, how did our country get into trouble?How can our helper rulers quarrel with each other?Or would you like us to beseech the goddesses, as Homer did, to tell us how the civil strife first occurred?Shall we imagine these gods of literature and art speaking to us with tragic sublime solemnity as if teasing children?

G: How should I say it? Su: Roughly as follows.It is indeed not easy to shake such a well-established country and overthrow it; however, since everything that is produced must perish, this social organizational structure is of course not permanent and must be disintegrated.The situation will be as follows.Not only the plants that grow underground, but also the animals that grow above the ground, have favorable and unfavorable seasons for their souls and bodies; these two seasons come periodically when the circle formed by them makes a full circle. (Things that live for a long time have a long cycle, and things that live for a short time have a short cycle.)

Wise though the rulers you have trained for your city-states, they cannot always choose the best time to give birth to your race with sense observation and rational thinking, and they sometimes get it wrong, so they give birth inappropriately. child.The divine creation has a period of perfect number; the period of perishing creation is only a minimum number—a certain multiplication (controlling and controlled, including tertiary and quaternary), with which by making Rational numbers of the same unit are similar or dissimilar, or through addition or subtraction, a final result is obtained.Its basic ratio of 4 to 3, combined with 5 and multiplied three times, produces two harmony; one of them is the product of the multiplication of equal factors and the combination of 100 times the same power, and the other is that some are equal and some are not equal The product of the multiplication of factors, that is, one of them is either the diagonal square of a rational number (each minus "1") multiplied by 100, or the square of an irrational number (each minus "2") multiplied by 100, and the other is "3" Cube times 100①.This whole geometry is the decisive factor in this matter (good and bad).If your guardians make a mistake and marry the bride and groom when it is not a good time for childbearing, the children born will not be excellent or lucky.Although men choose the best of these descendants to govern the country, since they are not really good, when they take over the power of their fathers and become guardians, they begin to despise us, first of all music. Education then despises physical exercise, so that the young are becoming more and more uneducated.

The rulers chosen from among them have lost the true guardian's ability to distinguish between the gold, the silver, the brass, and the iron - as Hesiod said, and we have said.And when iron and silver, copper and gold, are mixed, there is disequilibrium: inconsistency and disharmony—where discord and disharmony arise, there are wars and enmities.No matter when or where the conflict occurred, you must consider it to be a conflict of this bloodline. ① Here, Plato mysteriously uses the relationship between geometric numbers to show that the way of heaven is permanent.Children born in auspicious seasons will have wisdom and good luck, and will rule the country in the future to benefit the people.

G: We shall consider the answer of the Goddess to be correct. Su: Since they are goddesses, their answers must be correct. G: What else will the goddess say next? Su: Once this kind of conflict occurs, the two groups within the ruler will take two different directions; the copper and iron groups tend to pursue self-interest, annex land and houses, and accumulate gold and silver treasures; They tend toward virtue and traditional order with their riches; they struggle with each other, and then some compromise is made, and lands and houses are divided and kept private, and former friends and supporters become frontiersmen and slaves.The defenders, who were supposed to defend the liberty of the latter, and who dedicated their lives to defending them in war, now became the ones who enslaved and oppressed them. G: I think that's where the changes come from. SOCRATES: Is this not, then, some sort of intermediate system between aristocracy and oligarchy? G: Exactly. Su: The changes are as mentioned above.What will happen after the change?Since this system is intermediate between aristocracy and oligarchy, it is evident that in some things it will resemble the one, and in others it will resemble the latter.In addition, it is also obvious that it will have some unique characteristics of its own.isn't it? G: That's right. SOCRATES: The respect for the rulers, the complete exclusion of the warrior class from agriculture, handicrafts, and commerce, the provision of public meals, and the ruler's lifelong practice of physical exercise, games, and wars—all these aspects make it resemble the former state system, do they not? ? Greg: Yes. Su: However, we dare not let wise men take over the power of the country (because these wise men in the country are no longer the simple and loyal characters they used to be, and their qualities have been mixed), but rather choose simple and brave people. The kind of people who come to rule the country.These are people who are more suitable for war than peace. They advocate strategy and tactics and spend most of their time in war. —These characteristics are mostly peculiar to this kind of country.isn't it? Greg: Yes. SOCRATES: This kind of ruler loves wealth, just like the rulers of oligarchy.They secretly coveted gold and silver in their hearts, and they had closets of gold and silver, and their houses were walled in; Grid: Exactly. Su: On the one hand, they love money and on the other hand they are not allowed to make money openly, so they will be very stingy when spending money, but they are happy to spend other people's money to satisfy their own desires.By despising the true goddesses, the friends of philosophy and theory, by giving up musical education in favor of physical education, they received an education not of persuasion but of compulsion.So they seek their pleasures in secret, escaping the scrutiny of the law, as a child escapes his father's scrutiny. G: You do an excellent job of describing a political system that mixes good and evil. Su: Yes, it has been mixed.But courage predominates in this system, so that only one characteristic stands out, and that is emulation and love of honor. G: Exactly. SOCRATES: The origin and nature of this institution is as described above, if we can outline an institution in just a few sentences without enumerating it in detail.For this generalization is sufficient for us to see which men are the most just and which are the most unjust, and it is not practicable to enumerate all forms of institutions and habits of men. Grid: Yes. SOCRATES: What kind of person is the individual corresponding to the system we have just outlined?How did such a person come about?What character traits do they have? Ademanthus: I think this kind of man is close to Glaucon in his desire to win. SOCRATES: In this point it may be similar, but in the following respects I do not think their character resembles his. A: In what areas? Su: They must be relatively self-confident and relatively uneducated, but they also like culture and listen to lectures, although they are by no means good at speeches.Such a man treats his slaves harshly, rather than simply maintaining a sense of superiority over them, as a fully educated man would.They are kind to free men and submissive to their magistrates.They love power and honor, but they don't want to rely on their eloquence and such advantages, but they want to rely on their military exploits and their military qualities to achieve this goal. They love to exercise and love to hunt. A: Yes, this is a habit suited to that system. Su: This kind of person may not pay much attention to money when they are young, but as they grow older, they will love money more and more.This is because as they grow older, their nature begins to touch the love of money, and because they have lost the best guarantee, their heart for good is not pure. A: What do you mean by the best guarantee? Su: Mixed with the rationality of music.This is the only inner guarantee of virtue in a person's life, and it exists in a virtuous mind. A: Well said. SOCRATES: Such is the character of the honor-loving youth, corresponding to the honor-loving city. A: Exactly. SOCRATES: This character arises roughly as follows.For example, there is a young man whose father is good and who lives in a city-state that is in political turmoil.He doesn't want honor, power, lawsuits, and all that kind of nonsense, and he would rather give up some of his rights in order to avoid trouble. A: How did his son become a lover of honor? SOCRATES: At first he heard his mother complain that his father was not a ruler, so that she was despised among women; All these things are taken very lightly, and when she sees her husband absorbed in his spiritual cultivation, and is indifferent to her, neither respectful nor disrespectful, seeing all these things she sighs and says to her son, his father Too unmanly, too lazy.There were many other complaints which women were accustomed to babble on such occasions. A: There are indeed many complaints of this kind. Su: You know that some servants of this kind of family are loyal on the surface, but they will also say such things to their children behind their master's back.When they see debtors or misbehaviors, the master does not prosecute them, and they encourage their children to punish such people when they grow up, and to behave more like a man than their father.When the child went outside, what he heard and saw was the same.Those who keep their own place are looked down upon by everyone and regarded as fools; those who run around and meddle in their own business are valued and praised instead.Therefore, on the one hand, this young man was exposed to the situation in the outside world, on the other hand, he was used to hearing his father's words, and after seeing his father's behavior closely, he found that it was quite different from what others said and did.So two forces compete for youth like a tug-of-war. His father instills and nurtures his spiritual rationality, while the influence of others strengthens his desire and passion.Because he is not born with inferiority, he is only badly influenced in his interactions with others. The struggle between the two forces makes him a compromised character. Self-control becomes a state between aggressiveness and passion, and he becomes a Arrogant lover of honor. A: I think you have accurately described the process of producing this kind of person. S: In this way, our description of the second type of state system and the second type of individual has come to an end. A: Yes. SOCRATES: Shall we go on, as Aeschylus says, about another kind of man corresponding to another kind of country?Or should we still talk about the state first and the individual second, as we planned? A: Of course, let’s talk about the country first. SOCRATES: The third type of state system, in my opinion, is oligarchy. A: What kind of system is this?Do you know what an oligarchy is? SO: It is a system based on property qualifications.Political power is in the hands of the rich, not the poor. A: I understand. SOCRATES: First of all we have to explain how the oligarchy arose from the politics of honor, must we not? A: Yes. Su: To be honest, even a blind person can see clearly the production process. A: What's going on? SOCRATES: Property in private hands can undermine the politics of honor.These people try every means to squander and waste, break the law and discipline, and commit all kinds of evil.Men do this, and women follow suit. A: Very likely. SOCRATES: As far as I can tell, they then looked at each other, imitated each other, and the majority of the ruling class formed the same ethos. A: Very likely. Su: In the long run, people who have made a fortune, the more they want to get rich, the more they look down on money, and the more they look down on virtue.It's like on a balance, one side sinks, the other side goes up, the two sides are always opposite, isn't it? A: Indeed. Su: In a country where money is respected and people with money are respected, virtue and good people are not respected. A: Obviously so. Su: Those who are respected, people will practice it, and those who are not respected will not be practiced.Always like this. A: Yes. SOCRATES: So, at last, the victorious man of honor has become a man of money.They sing the praises of the rich, put the rich in power, and despise the poor. A: Exactly. SOCRATES: Then they pass a law to establish the standard of oligarchy, a minimum amount of property; a larger amount in places with a high degree of oligarchy, and a smaller amount in places with a low degree of oligarchy.The law declares that no one shall be elected if the total amount of property does not meet the prescribed standards.And the passage of this law was achieved by force, or by intimidation to establish their own government.Do you say that the oligarchy is realized in this way? A: Yes. SOCRATES: Well, that is how the establishment of an oligarchy can be described. A: Yes.But what are the characteristics of this system?What do we say is wrong with it? SOCRATES: First of all, there is something wrong with the criterion that expresses the essence of the system.Assuming that people choose captains on the basis of property, a poor man with better seamanship cannot be elected. A: Well, they're going to screw up a voyage. SOCRATES: Isn't it the same for any other work that requires leadership? A: I personally think so. S: Except politics?Or is it the same reason? A: This is especially true in politics, because political leadership is the biggest and most difficult kind of leadership. S: That is one of the problems of oligarchy. A: Obviously yes. S: So, is this a relatively minor problem? A: what? SOCRATES: There must be not one but two such cities, one of the rich and the other of the poor, living in the same city, always plotting against each other. A: To be honest, this problem is not small at all. SOCRATES: It is quite possible that war cannot be waged under this system, which is another defect of it.If its few rulers want to fight, they must arm the masses of the people.But they fear the people more than the enemy.If instead of arming the masses of the people, they fight in person, they will find that they are indeed alone, and that the number of people they rule is really pitifully small.In addition, they are greedy and miserly. A: This is really a disgraceful bug. Su: There is another phenomenon that the same person has many different occupations at the same time, being a farmer, a businessman, and a soldier.What do you think of this phenomenon?We have blamed this kind of thing before, now you see it right? A: Of course not. SOCRATES: Now let us consider whether this system was the first to allow the greatest of these defects to exist? A: What do you mean by the biggest problem? SOCRATES: A man is allowed to sell his whole estate, and another is allowed to buy his whole estate.After selling out, he continued to live in this city, not as any part of this country, neither a merchant nor a worker, neither a cavalry nor an infantryman, just as a so-called poor or dependent. A: Yes.This is the first state system where this happened. SOCRATES: In an oligarchy, there is no decree to prevent this from happening.Otherwise some people would become extremely rich and some people would become extremely poor. A: Yes. Su: Please pay attention to one more thing.That is, when a person spends his wealth, does he benefit society in the above-mentioned ways?Or does he merely appear to belong to the ruling class, but in reality neither leads nor serves society under his leadership, but is a mere consumer of means of subsistence? A: He is just a consumer, no matter what he looks like. Sue: Shall we call him a drone?He grows in the state, and becomes a bane to it, as the drone grows in the hive, and becomes a harm to the hive. A: That's an apt metaphor, Socrates. SOCRATES: Admantus, do you agree or disagree with this opinion: All drones that can fly are born without stingers, but the drones among humans are different, some have no stingers, some have terrible stingers; those without stingers When they grow old and become beggars, those who have thorns become people who specialize in doing bad things. A: That's right. SOCRATES: So, wherever you see beggars in any country, there are also thieves, pickpockets, temple robbers, and other evildoers hiding around. A: That's obvious. SOCRATES: So, do you see beggars in the oligarchy? A: Almost all except the ruling class. SOCRATES: Shall we suppose, then, that here too there are a great number of stinging drones, that is, criminals, strictly controlled by the rulers? A: We can think so. SOCRATES: Can we say, then, that this kind of citizenry is due to the lack of good education, good training and good political institutions? A: You can say that. SOCRATES: Anyway, that's what oligarchy is like.What I just said, maybe more than that, is probably the fault of the oligarchic city-state. A: You are almost right. SOCRATES: So let's talk about this system of ruling power determined by title of property, which is called oligarchy.Let us proceed to the corresponding individual, let us speak of the generation of such a person and his character traits. A: Good. Su: I think most of the transformation from a person who loves honor to a person who loves money goes through the following process.Yeah? A: What kind of process? SOCRATES: The son of an honor-loving ruler, at first following his father's footsteps, and then seeing his father suddenly hit the rocks politically, with no money,— He may have been a general or some other great power, but he was then denounced, tried by a court, executed or exiled, and all his property was confiscated. A: This is very likely to happen. SOCRATES: My friend, this son, who has seen all this, endured all this, and lost his fortune, I think he will become timid, and the honor and competitiveness in his soul will be shaken at once, and he will be ashamed. Poverty turns to earning money, greedily, miserly, saving hard work to amass wealth.Do you not think that such a man would at this time consecrate lust and the love of money, and honor him as the king of his heart, and adorn him with a crown of gold, and wear a Persian sword? A: I think so. SOCRATES: Under the rule of this principle, I think reason and passion will be forced into slavery.Rationality is only allowed to calculate and study how to make more money, and passion is only allowed to admire and praise wealth and the rich, and only glorify getting rich and the way to get rich. A: From competitive youth to money-hungry youth, there is nothing more rapid and definite than this change. Su: Isn't this kind of youth an oligarchy? A: In any case, the kind of young people we are talking about here are transformed from the kind of people corresponding to the kind of system from which the oligarchy came about. SOCRATES: Let us see, then, whether there are similar characteristics between this kind of person and this kind of system. A: Let's see. S: Isn't their first similarity the worship of money? A: Of course it is. SOCRATES: Isn't their second similar feature thrifty and industrious?They only seek to meet their basic needs, and never waste money. Other desires are regarded as useless and suppressed. A: Exactly. Su: He is really a man who is sure to get every inch of profit. He keeps accumulating, and he is the kind of person that everyone praises.Isn't the character of this kind of person exactly corresponding to the oligarchic system? A: I agree.Wealth is the thing most valued by such a nation and such an individual. Su: In my opinion, this is because this kind of person has never paid attention to his own cultural education. A: I don't think he has noticed; otherwise he would never have chosen a blind man to be the leading character in the play and let him get the most honor. ① ①The ancient Greeks said that the God of Wealth was blind.Aristophanes has a play "The God of Fortune" handed down. Su: Well said.But consider that, because of their lack of breeding, the desires of the drones sprout in their breasts, some like beggars, some like villains.But because of their self-control, self-regulation, these desires are finally suppressed.Can we say that? A: Of course you can say that. SOCRATES: So, where do you see the traits of villains in these people? A: What do you think? SOCRATES: You can see it from their guardianship of orphans, from their impunity when they commit crimes. A: Indeed. SOCRATES: It is clear that they have a reputation for seeming honesty in their dealings and contracts.This is due to the effect of the kinder part of their hearts, suppressing the evil desires in their hearts—not by euphemistic persuasion, nor by reasoning, but by coercion and intimidation, forcing them to sacrifice themselves in order to keep their property. Be careful. A: Exactly. SOCRATES: In truth, my good friend, you can see in most of them a drone-like appetite whenever they have an opportunity to spend other people's money. A: Sure. SOCRATES: Therefore, such a person cannot get rid of inner contradictions.He is not actually a person, but a kind of dual personality.Generally speaking, however, his better claims prevail over the worse ones. A: Indeed. SOCRATES: I think, therefore, that such a person is perhaps more respectable and respectable than many others; but the true highest good, the harmony of the mind itself, is not to be found in them, and is far from him. A: I think so too. SOCRATES: Besides, the frugal and miser himself is often a weak competitor in the city, and it is difficult for him to win victory and glory.They are reluctant to spend money in the pursuit of fame, for fear of arousing their desire to spend money to help win victories and support their competitive spirit.They are only willing to spend a fraction of their money on a truly lonely fight.So the battle was lost, and their wealth was preserved! A: Indeed. SOCRATES: Do we have any doubts, then, that the stingy money-maker corresponds to the oligarchy? A: Not at all. SOCRATES: Our next step seems to be to discuss the origin and nature of plebeian politics, and then proceed to the personal character analogous to it.We still have to compare this kind of person with other kinds of characters and make our judgments. A: This is at least a consistent research procedure. SOCRATES: So, does the transition from oligarchy to populace go through this process—the insatiable pursuit of the greatest possible wealth? A: Please explain in detail. SOCRATES: Since the rulers know that their political status depends on wealth, they are unwilling to use laws to prohibit the squandering and squandering of inheritance among young people; their estates, while themselves growing richer, more influential and more famous. A: Exactly. Su: Worshiping wealth and living a simple and temperate life cannot coexist, one must go.Isn't this truth self-evident among the people of a country? A: It goes without saying. Su: In this way, on the one hand, there is no self-control at all, and on the other hand, they worship money and extravagance. The result of this kind of encouragement of laziness and dissipation in oligarchic society often turns some descendants of aristocratic families into propertyless paupers. A: Yes, often. SOCRATES: I think some of them are in debt, some are disenfranchised, some are both, and they are armed like stinging drones, and live in In a city, they hate and envy each other, and they are eager for revolution. A: That's right. Su: However, those people who only talk about making money are working hard for profit all day long, and they turn a blind eye to these poor people. They just continue to throw out the poisonous bait of their own money, looking for someone to be deceived, and giving loans at high interest rates, just like parents giving birth to children , causing the drones and beggars in the city-state to multiply and increase day by day. A: The result must be so. SOCRATES: When the fire of this evil is kindled, they do not want to extinguish it, either by a decree against the free disposition of property, or by some other appropriate decree. A: What law? SOCRATES: Not the best law, but a less-than-best law, which compels citizens to be morally minded.If there were a statute that voluntary contracts should be made at the loss of the contracting parties, the shamelessness of profit-seeking in a country would be lessened, and the evils we have just described, would be lessened. A: Much less. SOCRATES: But as a matter of fact, for all these reasons, in oligarchic countries the rulers keep the people in dire straits while they themselves live in comfort.Didn't their descendants become spoiled and indulgent, inactive, inattentive, unable to stand the test of both pleasure and pain, and become complete lazy people? A: Certainly. SOCRATES: They get into the habit of loving nothing but making money.Just don't care about morals, like ordinary poor people, don't you? A: They simply don't care. Su: The ruler and the ruled usually have such a relationship.As soon as they come together, or march together, or hike together, or perform other duties together, or participate in religious celebrations together, or go to war together in the navy or army, or fight the enemy together in the same field, They watched each other, and then the poor were not at all looked down upon by the rich.Do you believe, on the contrary, that a lean, strong, sunburned poor man stands next to a well-fed, well-fed rich man on the battlefield, and sees the latter panting and looking Look helpless, do you believe that at this time the poor man will think: it is because of the cowardice of the poor that these rich people can keep their wealth. Isn't that nice"? A: I know very well that they do. Su: Just like an unhealthy body, as long as it encounters a little external evil, it will get sick, and sometimes even without external evil, it will fall ill. A whole person is a civil war.Similarly, in a country, as long as there is a slight opportunity, one party will introduce allies from oligarchic countries, and the other party will introduce allies from democratic countries. In this way, the country will become sick and civil war will break out.Sometimes partisanship occurs without outsiders intervening.isn't it? A: Absolutely so. SOCRATES: As a result of factional struggles, if the poor are victorious, some of the opponents are put to death, some are exiled, and the rest of the citizens have equal citizenship and the opportunity to hold office—offices are usually decided by lot.A democracy, I think, is how it comes about. A: Yes.This is a democratic system, whether established by armed struggle or by means of intimidation, the end result is the same, the opposition party is forced to withdraw. SOCRATES: So how do the people live under this system?What is the nature of this system?For, obviously, a man of this nature will show himself to be a democratic man. A: Obviously. S: First of all, aren't they free?Is not the city-state literally full of freedom of movement and freedom of speech?Isn't everyone allowed to do what they want? A: It is said to be so. Su: Since you can do whatever you want, obviously everyone will have their own plan for living, and they can live as they like. A: Obviously so. SOCRATES: Then the city-state will have the most diverse personalities. A: Definitely. Sue: Maybe so.This is the most beautiful kind of character in the political system. They are of various colors, like embroidered clothes, colorful, and they look really beautiful.And the general public may also conclude that it is the most beautiful because of this, just like women and children feel beautiful when they see brightly colored things. A: Indeed. SOCRATES: Yes, my friend, this is the best place to find a system. A: Why? 苏：由于这里容许有广泛的自由，所以它包括有一切类型的制度。很可能凡希望组织一个国家的人，象我们刚才说过的，必须去一个民主城邦，在那里选择自己所喜欢的东西作为模式，以确定自己的制度，如同到一个市场上去选购自己喜欢的东西一样。 阿：不管怎么说，在这个市场上他大概是不会选不到合适的模式的。 苏：又，在这种国家里，如果你有资格掌权，你也完全可以不去掌权；如果你不愿意服从命令，你也完全可以不服从，没有什么勉强你的。别人在作战，你可以不上战场；别人要和平，如果你不喜欢，你也可以要求战争；如果有什么法令阻止你得到行政的或审判的职位，只要机缘凑巧，你也一样可以得到它们。就眼前而论，这不是妙不可言的赏心乐事吗？ 阿：就眼前而论也许是的。 苏：那些判了刑的罪犯，那毫不在乎的神气，不有点使人觉得可爱吗？你一定看到过，在这种国家里，那些被判了死罪的或要流放国外的，竟好象没事人一样，照旧在人民中间来来往往，也竟好象来去无踪的精灵似的没人注意他们。 阿：我看到过不少。 苏：其次，这种制度是宽容的，它对我们那些琐碎的要求是不屑一顾的，对我们建立理想国家时所宣布的庄严原则是蔑视的。我们说过除非天分极高的人，不从小就在一个好的环境里游戏、学习受到好的教养，是不能成长为一个善人的。 民主制度以轻薄浮躁的态度践踏所有这些理想，完全不问一个人原来是干什么的，品行如何，只要他转而从政时声称自己对人民一片好心，就能得到尊敬和荣誉。 阿：实在是个好制度啊！ 苏：这些以及类似的特点就是民主制度的特征。这看来是一种使人乐意的无政府状态的花梢的管理形式。在这种制度下不加区别地把一种平等给予一切人，不管他们是不是平等者。 阿：你这话是很容易理解的。 苏：那么，让我们考察一下与这种社会相应的人物性格。 我们要不要象在考查这种社会制度时一样首先来考查一下这种人的起源呢？ 阿：要的。 苏：那么是不是这样？我的意思是说，我们吝啬的寡头政治家可能要按照他自己的样子培育他的儿子。 阿：是很可能的。 苏：这个年轻人也会竭力控制自己的欲望，控制那些必须花钱而不能赚钱的所谓不必要的快乐。