Chapter 13 Volume VII-2

G: We think so too. SOCRATES: The science of geometry then works exactly the opposite of what is expressed in the language used by its adepts--even those who have only a superficial acquaintance with geometry will not dispute this. G: What's the matter? SOCRATES: What they say is ridiculous, although it has to be said.For example, when they talk about "recipe", "drawing", "extending" and so on, they seem to be doing something, and all their reasoning is for practical purposes.And in fact the real purpose of this science is pure knowledge. G: Absolutely. SOCRATES: Can we still agree on the following point?

G: Which point? SOCRATES: The object of geometry is something eternal, not something that comes into being and perishes from time to time. G: There is no doubt about it: Geometry is the knowledge of eternal things. SOCRATES: So, my good friend, geometry will probably lead the soul to the truth, and perhaps turn the soul of the philosopher upward instead of downward, as we mistakenly do today. G: It must be so. Su: Therefore, you must ask the citizens of your ideal country to pay attention to geometry.And it has important side benefits. G: What are the side benefits? SOCRATES: It is useful for war, as you have already said.We also know that it has a certain advantage for the learning of all other subjects, and that those who have studied geometry differ greatly in the study of other subjects from those who have not.

G: Really, very different. SOCRATES: Well, let's settle down: Geometry is the compulsory second subject for young people.May I? G: Set it down. Su: We make astronomy the third subject, what do you think? G: Of course I agree.A keen understanding of the year, month, and seasons is not only useful for farming and navigation, but also useful for marching and fighting. S: That's funny, you're obviously worried that people will think you're suggesting some useless discipline.But it is indeed no easy task: to believe that in every soul there is an organ of knowledge which, after being ruined and blinded by habit, can be dusted off and brightened again by these studies suggested. (Maintaining this organ is more important than maintaining ten thousand eyes, for it is the only organ that sees truth.) Those who believe this with us, they will think your words are absolutely true, but those who To the ignorant, they will naturally think that what you say is nonsense, because they cannot see that this learning can bring any worthwhile benefits.Now please decide for yourself which side to discuss with.Or don't discuss it with any side, you make these arguments mainly for your own sake, although no intention to oppose anyone else also benefit from it.

G: I would rather be like this, I discuss, I ask questions, I answer mainly for myself. SOCRATES: Well, you have to step back a little bit, because after discussing geometry, we went on to discuss the wrong choice of subject just now. G: Why did you choose the wrong one? Su: After we have discussed the plane, we have not discussed the pure solid itself, so we directly discuss the three-dimensional things with movement.The correct way is to proceed from the second dimension to the third dimension.The third dimension, I think, is what cubes and everything that has thickness have. G: That's right.But, Socrates, the subject does not seem to be well developed.

Su: There are two reasons why it has not been developed.First, no city-state pays attention to it, and it is difficult, so people are unwilling to study it.Second, the trainee must have someone to guide him, otherwise he will not succeed. Firstly, the tutor is rare, and secondly, even if he finds it, according to the current fashion, the trainee in this field may not be able to accept the guidance with humility.But if the whole city-state governs and promotes the cause, the students will heed the advice; and persistent and vigorous research will bring to light many of the subjects of the science of solid geometry.Although many people despise it now, and practitioners can't treat it correctly because they don't understand its true function, which affects its development, it still overcomes various obstacles with its inherent charm and has made certain progress. Even if it is studied clearly, we will not be surprised.

G: It's really fun and charming.But please clarify what you just said. You just said that geometry is the study of planes. Su: Yes. G: Then, you go on to talk about astronomy first, and then back off. Su: You should know, I am doing more than I want.Solid geometry should have been followed by plane geometry, but since it is still underdeveloped, I ignored it in haste and talked about astronomy; astronomy deals with solids in motion. G: Yes, you did that. SOCRATES: Let us, then, make astronomy a fourth subject of study, assuming that that science, which has been neglected and not discussed, has a role in the administration of the city.

G: That's fine.Besides, Socrates, you attacked me just now, saying that my motives for commenting on astronomy are not noble and utilitarian. I don't do that now, and I want to use your principles to praise it.It is well known, I think, that this discipline must compel the mind to look upwards, and lead the mind away from things here to see things higher up. Su: Maybe everyone knows, except me, because I don't think so. G: What do you think? SOCRATES: Discussing astronomy as it is now being discussed by those who have led us to master philosophy, I think that astronomy can only turn the eyesight of the soul greatly downward.

G: Why? Su: I think that your understanding of "learning the things above" is not low-level; you may think that anyone who looks up at the ceiling and caisson is learning with his soul rather than with his eyes.Maybe you are right and I am ignorant.For I can think of no other study than the study of the real and the invisible that will lift the sight of the soul.If anyone tries to study the visible, whether he looks up with his mouth open, or down with his eyes blinked, I do not think he really learns (for any such thing cannot possibly contain real knowledge), Nor would I think his soul was looking upwards.Even though he was studying on his back (on land or sea), I thought he was looking down.

① Borrow Aristophanes wording.See Comedy 17a. G: I was wrong, and you were right to criticize.You think that studying astronomy should not be done like it is now, so what kind of study method do you advocate, if it is necessary to learn it in order to achieve our goal? SOCRATES: I say that these celestial bodies adorn the heavens, and though we are right to regard them as the most beautiful and exact of visible things, yet because they are visible they are far less than real, i.e. having real number and everything. Real graphics, real fast and slow both related and supporting movement.What is real can only be grasped by reason and thought, and is invisible to the eye.You may have a different idea?

G: No, not at all. SOCRATES: We must, therefore, use the picture of the sky only as an explanatory drawing to help us learn its reality, as one happens to see a design drawn with special care by Daedalus or some other painter or painter. .Because anyone with geometrical knowledge will admire the ingenuity of the painter when seeing this kind of picture, but if they see others believe it is true and want to find the absolute truth about equality, doubling or other proportions from the picture, they will also Think it's ridiculous. G: How can it not be ridiculous? SOCRATES: Don't you think a real astronomer feels the same way when he lifts up his eyes and observes the motions of the heavenly bodies?He will think that the Maker of the sky has made the sky and the stars in it as perfect as possible, but if he sees someone who thinks that there is a constant and absolutely unchanging proportional relationship between day and night, day and night. He would also think it absurd to think that there are other planetary cycles with the sun, month, year, and other planetary cycles with each other.They are all materially visible, and it is absurd to seek truth in them.

G: Now that you have said that, I agree with you. SOCRATES: Therefore, if we really want to study astronomy, and use correctly the gifted intellect of the soul, we should also study astronomy as we study geometry, asking questions and solving them, regardless of what is visible in the sky. thing. G: You are trying to make the work of studying astronomy many times more difficult than it is now! SOCRATES: I think that if we are to play any role as legislators we have to make other similar demands.Do you have any other suitable subjects to suggest? G: I can't tell right away. SOCRATES: In my opinion, there is not only one kind of sport but many kinds.It may be a philosopher's job to enumerate all kinds of exercise, but even we can name two of them. G: Which two? Su: One is the astronomy just mentioned, and the other is the paired thing. G: What is it? SOCRATES: I think we can say that our ears were made for harmony of sound, as the eye was made for astronomy; and these two sciences, as the Pythagoreans held, and we agree , Glaucon, they are brother disciplines.right? Grid: Yes. SOCRATES: Since the matter is so important, shall we ask the Pythagoreans what they think of this, and what else they say?Here, however, we must always keep an eye on our own affairs. G: What's the matter? SOCRATES: Let our pupils not try to learn anything that does not suit our purpose, and always ends up falling short of that which should be the purpose of everything, as we said just now when we were discussing astronomy.Or, you don't know it yet, when they study harmony problems, they repeat the mistakes they have made in astronomy.Like astronomers, they spend a lot of hard work listening to sounds and comparing audible sounds. G: Exactly.They're also ridiculous.They talk about intervals and listen as carefully as if they were listening to the conversation of the next-door neighbor.Some say that they can distinguish another tone between two tones, which is the smallest interval and a unit of measurement. Others insist that the sounds are no different.All of them would rather use their ears than their hearts. SOCRATES: You're talking about the famous people who tortured the strings and twisted them on the posts to try to tell the truth; and the shameless repudiation of the strings, but I'm going to drop the metaphor, because I don't attach as much importance to these people as I do to the Pythagoreans (whom we just said we were going to ask about harmony).For they do exactly what astronomers do: they seek numerical relations between audible tones, never going too far to illustrate the problem, and examine what numerical relations are harmonious and what numerical relations are not. Harmonious, why each. G: It should be noted that this is not something ordinary people can do. SOCRATES: If the purpose is to seek the beautiful and the good, I say this science is beneficial, but if it is for other purposes, I say it is useless. G: That's very possible. Su: I also think that if the study of these disciplines goes deep enough to clarify the interrelationships and kinship between them, and to draw a general understanding, then we will have a result of our hard work on these disciplines, and we will have If it helps to achieve our stated goals, otherwise it is a waste of hard work. G: I think so too.But, Socrates, that means a lot of work! Su: You mean the preamble ①, right?Don't you know that all this study is but a preface to the text of the law we are to study?I don't think you would consider a dialectician who is proficient in the above-mentioned subjects. ①Like the preface to the text of the law, to study dialectics one must first learn mathematics, astronomy and other sciences. G: Not really, with very few exceptions that I've encountered. SOCRATES: Can a person acquire any of the knowledge we claim they should have if they cannot make logical arguments for their views? G: It is impossible. SOCRATES: At this point, Glaucon, isn't this the text of the law established by dialectics?Although it belongs to the knowable world, we can see its copy in the process of the change of visual ability mentioned above: from seeing shadows to trying to see real animals, then being able to see stars, and finally seeing the sun itself.In like manner, a man attains to the intelligible things when he tries to arrive at the essence of everything by means of dialectics, by reasoning regardless of the perceptions of the senses, and persists until the essence of the good is apprehended by thought itself. The summit is reached, just as the man in our metaphor reaches the summit of the visible world. G: Exactly. Su: So how?Don't you want to call this thought process a dialectical process? G: Of course I do. SOCRATES: When a man is freed from shackles, he turns from shadows to shadow-casting images, to firelight, and then rises from the cave to the sun, and he cannot yet see animals, plants, and sunlight directly, but only the objects in the water. God created phantoms and shadows of real things (not the shadows of the shadows cast by the less real firelight of the sun).This process of learning and research in all the sciences and technologies we are examining can lead the best part of the soul up to see the best part of reality, just as in our parable what is brightest in man is turned to see the brightest in the visible world of matter. something like that. ③ ①,② "image" refers to the object in the metaphor. ③The former refers to the eyes, and the latter refers to the sun. G: I agree with that statement.While I find it hard to fully agree on the one hand, it's hard not to agree on the other.Anyway—since we are not allowed to hear this once, but are to be heard many times later—let us assume that these things are as they were, and let us go down to the text of the law, and Discuss it as you would a prologue.Tell us, then, what is the power of dialectics?What kind of it?What method do you use?For the answers to these questions seem to lead us to rest, to the end of our journey. SOCRATES: Dear Glaucon, you can no longer follow me, not because I don't want to do so on my part, but because now I want you to see no longer the images we use as metaphors, It is the reality of the thing itself, of course as far as it allows me to see—although we cannot be sure that what we see is exactly reality, we can be sure that the reality we must see is something of this kind.Do you agree? G: Of course it is. SOCRATES: Shall we also declare that only dialectics is capable of seeing reality, and only those who have studied the disciplines we have enumerated, and no other way? G: We can be sure that this assertion is also true. SOCRATES: On this point, no one will argue against us that there are any other avenues of research which can systematically ascertain in all cases the true nature of everything.And all the other technical sciences are wholly concerned either with the opinions and desires of men, or with the production and manufacture of things, or with the care of them after they have been produced or produced; That is to say, geometry and its related sciences, although they have a certain knowledge of reality, we can see that they only see reality dreamily, so long as they use the assumptions they use intact and cannot give They cannot yet clearly see reality without any explanation.Because, if the premise is something unknown, the conclusion and the intermediate steps to the conclusion are also composed of unknown things. In this case, how can the agreement of the result become real knowledge? G: No way. SOCRATES: Dialectics is therefore the only method of inquiry which, without assumptions, can go up to the first principles themselves, in order to find reliable grounds there. When the eye of the soul is really mired in the mire of ignorance, dialectics can gently pull it out and guide it upwards, while aiding in the transformation process with those subjects of study we have enumerated.We often refer to these subjects as one kind of knowledge according to the habit. In fact, we need another name, a name that shows that it is clearer than opinion and vaguer than knowledge.We have used the name "sanity" before.But I feel that we need not argue over a single word when there are such great issues before us to discuss. Greg: Yes. SOCRATES: Let us, then, be content with the names we have used before, and call the first part knowledge, the second intellect, the third belief, and the fourth imagination; Collectively called opinion, the first part and the second part are collectively called reason; opinion is about producing the world, reason is about reality; the relationship between reason and opinion is like the relationship between reality and the producing world, the relationship between knowledge and belief, reason and The relation of imagination is like that of reason to opinion.As for the relations between the things corresponding to these states of the soul, and their subdivision into two parts, the part capable of opinion and the part capable of understanding.These questions, Glaucon, let us leave them alone, lest we be drawn into a longer debate. ① See 511D-E above. G: Well, as far as I can follow you, I agree with you about the rest. SOCRATES: Would you not agree to call a dialectician a man who can rightly demonstrate the reality of everything?A man who cannot do this, i.e., cannot reason rightly to himself and to others, would you not agree to say that he is irrational, ignorant of the reality of things? G: How can I disagree? SOCRATES: Doesn't this statement apply equally to the good?A man who cannot by argument distinguish and define the idea of ​​a good man from all other things, cannot withstand every trial as he is attacked in the field of battle, and endeavors to examine all things by facts and not by opinions. If he lacks the power to carry the argument to the end in the right direction without blundering, you will say that he does not really know the good itself, nor any particular good; but if he touches the general outlines of it, He has only opinions on it but has no knowledge, and he has been dozing off and dreaming all his life, and before he wakes up, he has entered the underworld and slept forever.Is that right? G: Really, I totally agree with you. Su: But if you actually educate your children whom you have educated only in words, I don't think you will allow them to rule the country and decide the affairs of the country, since they are like irrational lines in geometry. So irrational. G: Of course not. SOCRATES: So you have to use the law to require them to pay special attention to training and cultivating their ability to ask and answer questions in the most scientific way. G: I will make such a decree as you wish. Su: Then, do you agree that it is correct that dialectics is placed at the top of our educational system like a wall stone, and that no other subjects of study can be placed on top of it? That's it? G: I agree. Su: Well, what is left for you to do now is to choose who to study these lessons and how to choose the method. G: Obviously yes. SOCRATES: Well, do you remember the kind of people we chose earlier when we chose our rulers? G: Of course I do. S: So, in most respects, you have to think that we have to select people who have the same natural qualities.The staunchest, bravest, and as far as possible the most gracious must be selected.Moreover, we must require them not only of nobility and austerity of character, but of gifts suitable for this type of education. G: What talents would you like to point out? SOCRATES: My friends, first of all they must love learning and learn without difficulty.Because the soul is much more afraid of hardships in learning than in physical activities, because this kind of labor is closer to the soul, and it is exclusive to the soul, not shared with the body. Grid: Yes. SOCRATES: We want them to be stronger than memory.Perseverance, love of labor in all senses.Otherwise how can you imagine that any of them would endure all physical toil and complete such a vast course of study and training? G: No one can do that except the very gifted. SOCRATES: Our present error, and the consequent contempt for philosophy, lies, as I said before, in that its companions and suitors are not worthy of being its companions and suitors.They should not be bollfly dummies but true sons. G: I don't understand. Su: First of all, those who are interested in philosophy must not take the attitude of a cripple walking towards labor, and cannot half love labor and half be afraid of labor.This is the case if a man loves hunting, fighting, and all kinds of physical labor, but not learning, listening to lectures, research, and all kinds of intellectual labor of this kind.In the opposite way he who loves intellectual labor only walks like a lame man. G: You couldn't be more correct. SOCRATES: With regard to reality, do we not also regard the souls of the following persons as crippled?He loathes deliberate falsehood, cannot tolerate it in himself, is very angry when he sees it in others, but accepts unintentional falsehood willingly, and is not anxious when his lack of knowledge is exposed, as if nothing had happened. Treat your ignorance like a pig rolling in muddy water. G: The soul of such a person should be regarded as crippled. SOCRATES: With regard to temperance, valor, magnanimity, and all virtues of every kind, we must be as vigilant about the false as with the true.For if an individual or a nation lacks the knowledge necessary to distinguish between true and false, he will inadvertently make a cripple or a fake good man his personal friend or ruler of the nation. G: It will. SOCRATES: We must take care to avoid all such mistakes.If we single out the healthy in body and mind and subject them to our long-term teaching and training, justice itself will not blame us, and we will maintain our city-state and social system.Had we chosen another kind of man, the result would have been quite the opposite, and we would have made philosophy a still greater mockery. G: That would be a shameful thing indeed. SOCRATES: That's true, but I think I'm making myself look a little ridiculous at the moment. G: Why? Su: I forgot that we were just joking, and I became so serious.Note that I caught a glimpse of philosophy in the course of my speech, and when I saw it unjustly maligned, I resented it, and I spoke too seriously in speaking of those responsible for it, as if in Angry. G: But to be honest, I don't sound overly serious. S: But, as a speaker, I myself feel too serious.We must not forget, however, that we used to always elect older people, but not here. Solon once said that people can learn many things when they are old.We must not believe him.People can't run more when they are old, let alone study more.All the heavy and tiring things can only be done when you are young. G: That makes sense. SOCRATES: Then, arithmetic, geometry, and all the preparatory subjects that must be studied before dialectics must be taught to them when they are still young, and certainly not by force. G: Why? SOCRATES: Because a free man should not be compelled to do any learning.Because forced physical exertion is harmless to the body, but forced learning cannot take root in the mind. G: Really. SOCRATES: So, my friends, do not force children to learn, but by playing.You can better understand the nature of each of them in the game. G: Your words make sense. SOCRATES: Have you forgotten that we also said that we must let our children ride out into the field of battle to see the battle, and in a safe place let them get close to the front and taste the blood like little beasts? G: I still remember. SOCRATES: Those children who have always been the most capable in all these toils of physical exercise, study, and horror of war, should be singled out. G: How old are you? SOCRATES: As soon as the necessary physical training is over.Because during that time—or two or three years—they can't do anything else.Extreme fatigue and prolonged sleep are the enemies of learning, and examining each of them in gymnastics was an important part of their overall inspection. G: Of course. Su: After this period of time has passed, from the age of twenty, the selected young people will receive more honors than others. They will be required to synthesize the contents of the various courses that they learned separately when they were young, and to study the interrelationships between them. connections and their relationship to the nature of things. G: This is the only way to obtain permanent knowledge. Su: This is also the most important touchstone for dialectical talent.Because whoever can see things in connection is a dialectician, otherwise he is not a dialectician. G: I agree. SOCRATES: Keeping these natural conditions in mind, you should make a second selection among the first selection of youths who have shown steadfastness in their studies, wars, and other duties, and choose the richest among them. These endowed youths, at the age of thirty, are given higher honors, and dialectically tested to see which of them can follow truth, without eyes and other senses, to simplicity itself.Only here, my friend, you must be careful. G: Why do we have to be so careful here? Su: Have you noticed the evil consequences of the current practice of dialectics? G: What consequences? S: People who practice dialectics violate the law. G: It is true. SOCRATES: Do you think there is anything amazing about their state of mind, and do you think it inexcusable? G: What do you mean? Su: Let’s use an analogy.For example, there is an adopted son who is raised in a wealthy and large family, surrounded by many flatterers and sycophants.When he was an adult, he knew that the people who claimed to be his parents were not his parents, but he couldn't find his real parents.Think about it, what would he have thought of those caterers and false parents before and after he knew the truth?Maybe, do you want to hear my speculation? G: I would. Sue: My conjecture is as follows.Before he knows the truth, he respects his so-called father, mother, and other relatives more, cares more about their needs, and wants to do less to them than he does to the flatterers around him. Say something illegal, or do not follow their advice on important matters. G: Probably so. SOCRATES: But after he discovers the truth, I surmise that his respect and devotion to his parents and relatives will become less and less, and he will turn his attention to those flatterers.He will pay more attention to the latter than ever before, and will henceforth live by their rules, marry them openly, and become completely indifferent to his adoptive father and other adoptive relatives.Unless his nature is particularly righteous, it will not be like this. G: All of what you're talking about is very possible.But how does this metaphor relate to those who engage in philosophical dialectics? Su: The explanation is as follows.What is justice?What is honorable?We have ideas about these issues from childhood.We grow up with this concept, as if we grew up under the care of our parents.We obey them and respect them. Greg: Yes. SOCRATES: But there are other customs and fashions contrary to this.They have a fascination and attraction to the human soul because they give pleasure, and though they cannot conquer any decent man, the decent man still respects and obeys the teachings of the father. G: There is such a habit and fashion. SOCRATES: Then, "What is honor?" When a man is confronted with such a question, and answers it on the basis of what he has learned from the legislator, he is refuted in debate; when he is refuted many times and in many places When refuted, his conviction is shaken, he becomes convinced that what is honorable is no more honorable than what is shameful; and when he feels the same about justice, goodness, and all that they chiefly respect When you think about it, what will he do in terms of respect and obedience to these traditions thereafter? G: He will definitely not be as respectful and obedient as before. SOCRATES: When he no longer feels that these previous creeds must be respected and abided by, but the truth has not yet been found, what kind of life will he turn to? Won't he adopt the life that bewitches him? G: Yes. SOCRATES: Then we shall see him change from a law-abiding person to a law-breaker. G: Certainly. SOCRATES: But all this is a natural consequence of engaging in philosophical debate in this way, and, as I have just said, quite forgivable.Yeah? Greg: Yes.And also very poor. SOCRATES: In order that you may not have to pity your thirty-year-old students, you must be very careful how you lead them into this debate.Yeah? Greg: Yes. SOCRATES: Isn't it an important precaution not to allow them to try debates at a young age?I think you must have noticed that when young people first try to debate, because they think it is fun, they like to argue with people everywhere, and imitate the rebuttals of others, and refute others themselves.They like to bite with words like a puppy likes to drag and bite everyone who comes close. G: Exactly. Su: When they refute others many times, and they themselves are refuted many times by others, they quickly fall into strong doubts about everything they thought to be correct before.The result is to damage the credibility of himself and the entire philosophical enterprise in the eyes of the world. G: Couldn't be more correct. SOCRATES: But an older man is not so mad, and he would rather imitate those who argue in search of truth than those who are only for lip service.So he himself would be a measured man.He can give credibility to the philosophy he studies rather than discredit it. Grid: Yes. SOCRATES: We say all these things just to prevent this.We ask that those who are allowed to take part in such discussions must be men of moderate and firm character, and not just any unqualified man, as is now the case.Is that right? G: Absolutely. SOCRATES: Then, as in the corresponding gymnastics training, is it not enough to spend twice as long on the study of dialectics as in the corresponding gymnastics training? G: Do you mean six or four years? Su: Well, let’s say five years.Because, after that, you have to send him down into the cave again, and force them to command wars or other public duties suitable for young people, so that they can not be inferior to others in practical experience, and you must make them in these official duties. In the middle of the world, they will be tested to see if they can stand firm in the face of various temptations, or to see if they will cringe and cheat. G: How long do you give this stage? Su: Fifteen years.At the age of fifty those who have passed with distinction in all aspects of practical work and intellectual learning must undergo a final test.We will ask them to turn their soul's gaze upwards to the source of light that illuminates all things.Having seen the good itself in this way, they have to use it as a prototype to govern the state, individual citizens, and themselves.Philosophy was to be spent most of their remaining years; but when it came their turn, each of them toiled in managing the tedious affairs of politics, and rose to the office of ruler for the sake of the city--not for glory. Instead, consider the necessity.When, therefore, they had produced heirs like themselves who could take their place as defenders, they could resign their duties and enter the Promised Land, where they settled.The state will erect monuments to them, and worship them as gods, if the god of Pythia will consent.Otherwise, they can also be sacrificed to the specifications of god-like great men. G: Ah, Socrates, you have, like a carver, most perfectly completed your work of shaping the image of the ruler. SOCRATES: Glaucon, the rulers here also include women.You must think that what I say about the men is equally true of the women who were born among them, provided they possess the requisite gifts. G: Yes, if they are to participate in all activities like men, as we have described. SOCRATES: I say that our ideas about the state and the political system are not entirely utopian; its realization, though difficult, is still possible, if the road is right, as we said before.Just let the real philosophers, one or more, take power in this country.They regard all things that are considered honorable by today's people as base and worthless. They value justice and the honor derived from justice above all, and regard justice as the most important and necessary thing. Put your city-state on track.Do you think I'm right? G: How to do it? 苏：他们将要求把所有十岁以上的有公民身份的孩子送到乡下去，他们把这些孩子接受过来，改变他们从父母那里受到的生活方式影响，用自己制定的习惯和法律（即我们前面所描述的）培养他们成人。这是我们所述及的国家和制度藉以建立起来，得到繁荣昌盛，并给人民带来最大福利的最便捷的途径。 格：这确是非常便捷之径。我认为，苏格拉底啊，如果这种国家要得到实现的话，你已经很好地说明了它的实现方法了。 苏：至此我们不是已经充分地谈过了我们的这种国家以及与之相应的那种人了吗？须知，我们会提出需要什么样的人，这无疑是一清二楚的。 格：我想我已经回答完了你的问题了。这也是很清楚的。