Chapter 16 Volume 9-1

SOCRATES: The question we still have left to discuss is that of the tyrannical individual.Questions include: How did this character develop from a democratic character?What kind of character does he have?How is his life, pain or pleasure? A: Yes, there is still this issue to discuss. S: Do you know of any other issues to be discussed? A: What else? Su: On the question of desire.I think we haven't done enough to analyze the nature and kind of desire.If this work is not done well, we will not be able to discuss clearly when we discuss tyrant characters. A: So, isn't your chance now?

Su: Very good.What I want to illustrate is as follows.Among non-essential pleasures and desires, there are some that I consider illegitimate.Illegitimate pleasures and desires may be found in all of us; but, when controlled by law and the better desires that make friends with reason, may be eradicated in some, or leave but a faint remnant, while in others There are still more and stronger ones left on the body. A: Which desires are you referring to? SOCRATES: I mean those desires that come alive when people sleep.When people sleep, the rest of the soul, the rational, educated and controlling part, loses its function, while the animal and wild part becomes active after eating and drinking, and strives to overcome sleepiness and rush out to satisfy its own desires. Nature requires.You know, in such a case, having lost all shame and reason, one would have nothing bad to think of; not afraid of incest in dreams, or with anyone else, with men and gods and beasts. If they have sex, they dare to murder and want to eat forbidden things.In short, there is nothing foolish and shameless that they dare not think about doing.

A: You are absolutely right. SOCRATES: But, I think, if a man's body and mind are in a healthy and sensible condition, he has awakened reason before he sleeps, and given it ample opportunity to question questions, and as for his desires, he has neither overstarved it. nor oversatisfy it, that it may be quiet, that it shall not trouble its virtuous part with pleasure or pain, that the latter may independently and unhindered its research and inquiry, and grasp the unknown, past, present, and future. if he had likewise quieted the passionate part of himself, instead of falling asleep wrathfully after a quarrel; if he had thus quieted both parts of his The three parts are active, and the man is thus asleep; you know, a man in this state is most likely to grasp the truth, and his dreams least likely to be illegitimate.

A: I think that must be the case. SOCRATES: We have already strayed far from the subject.My point is simply to say that there are terribly strong illicit desires in virtually every human being, even in the minds of some sanctimonious people.It often manifests itself in sleep.Do you think my words make sense?Do you agree? A: Yes, I agree. SOCRATES: Let us now recall the character of the democrat.This kind of person was educated and cultivated by a thrifty father from an early age.This kind of father only knows how to do business to make money, and he does not allow those unnecessary desires for entertainment and fame.

Is that right? A: Yes. SOCRATES: But the son, as he associates with the worldly people, has many of the desires of which we have just spoken.This influence propels him into all kinds of arrogance and lawlessness, and pushes him to adopt a life of luxury in disgust with his father's miserliness.But because his nature was better than that of his instigator, under the action of two forces, he finally determined the middle way.He thought he had absorbed the best of both worlds, was neither extravagant nor stingy, and lived a life that was neither poor nor illegal.So he changed from an oligarch to a democrat.

A: This is exactly our consistent view on this type of character. SOCRATES: Now imagine this: as he grew older, this man also had a son, and raised his son with his own way of life. A: Well, I imagine the same way. Su: Please imagine that the son will have the same situation as the father.He was pulled toward total illegality—what his abettors called total freedom.The father and other relatives support compromising desires, while the abettor supports extreme desires.When these dreadful magicians and tyrants realized that they had no hope of controlling the youth in this way, they contrived to plant in his soul a dominant passion, the guardian of idleness and extravagant desires, A wicked stinging drone.Can you think of anything else that better describes this passion?

A: Other than that, there is no better metaphor. SOCRATES: Other desires huddle around it, offering flowers, wine, and scents, letting it indulge in lustful pleasures, feeding and fattening it with these pleasures, until at last it feels deeply unsatisfied. pain.At this time, it becomes crazy and reckless because of these guards around it.If at this time it sees in the man any opinions and desires which may be called decent and shameful, it destroys them, or drives them out, till the man is cleansed of temperance, Let madness take its place. A: This is a complete description of the generation of tyrant characters.

Su: Since ancient times, love has always been called an autocratic tyrant, isn't it also because of this reason? A: Probably yes. SOCRATES: My friend, don't you see that a drunk is also a bit of a tyrant? A: Yes. SOCRATES: Also, the insane lunatic not only imagines but tries to really rule not only man but God. A: Indeed. SOCRATES: Therefore, my friend, when a man has become a drunkard, a lecher, and a madman, either by nature, or habit, or both, he is a complete tyrant. A: Undoubtedly. SOCRATES: This seems to be the origin and character of such characters.But what about his lifestyle?

A: You asked me, I was going to ask you.You better tell me. Su: All right, let me tell.I think that after a man's mind has been completely taken over by a dominant passion, his life is one of extravagance, debauchery, debauchery, and so on. A: This is inevitable. SOCRATES: There are many, many terrible desires growing day and night around this master, demanding many things to satisfy them.right? A: Indeed. SOCRATES: Therefore, whatever income a person has, he spends it quickly. A: Of course. Su: From now on, it will be loans and mortgages. A: Of course. Su: When there is no way to borrow money and nothing to mortgage, won't the chicks of desire hatched in his mind inevitably make a strong cry of wanting to be fed?Wasn't he bound to be driven mad by them (especially by the dominant passion as leader), and to spy the direction to see who had something to rob or cheat?

A: That's for sure. Su: He must rob everything that can be robbed, otherwise he will be in great pain. A: Definitely. SOCRATES: Just as the new pleasures of the soul outweigh and rob the old passions, so this man, as a junior, will claim the right to surpass his parents, and deprive them of their share, having exhausted his own. For myself to continue to squander. A: Of course it is. Sue: If his parents don't agree, he will first try to defraud them of their property.Yeah? A: Sure. Su: If deception fails, he will take it by force in the next step.Yeah? A: I thought it would.

Su: My good friend, if the old man categorically refuses and resists, will the son be soft-hearted and not use tyrant methods against the old man? A: Faced with this kind of son, I have to worry about his parents. SOCRATES: Seriously, Ademantus, do you think that this kind of man would abuse his loving mother whom he had been inseparable from since birth for the sake of a newly found, dispensable, beautiful girlfriend, or for a newly found A dispensable teenage pedophile to flog his debilitated old father, his closest relative and longest-standing friend? If he brought these concubines back home to live with his parents, would he make his parents humbly submit to them? A: Yes, I mean that. SOCRATES: There is nothing more fortunate than to be parents of tyrants and tyrants! A: What luck! SOCRATES: If he squanders all his parents' property, and the desire for pleasure that swarms in his heart grows endlessly.What will happen to him then?Wouldn't he first go over the wall to steal, or pick the pockets of people who came late at night, and then ransacked the property of the temple?In all this, the convictions of the noble and the base, the ideas of justice which he had cultivated from childhood, would be dominated by those which were newly unleashed.And the latter, as the guard of the Juggernaut's passion, will gain an overwhelming advantage with the backing of the Juggernaut. —By "newly liberated opinions," I mean those which had previously been set free only in sleep; when he was still at heart a democratic institution, still under the control of his father and the law.But now under the control of the master's passion, he wants to do things in his waking hours that only occasionally appeared in his sleep in the past.He became lawless and dared to do anything, whether it was murder, robbery or blasphemy.The passion which presides over his soul is lawless like a tyrant, and drives him (as a tyrant drives a nation) to do everything to satisfy the demands of its own and other desires.And some of these desires are external, influenced by bad partners; some are internal, released by one's own bad habits.Can such a person's life be different? ① Ancient Greek customs and laws regarded it as a heinous crime. A: That's right. Su: If there are only a few such people in a country, most of them are clear-headed people.This few would then go abroad to serve as bodyguards of some foreign tyrant, or as mercenaries in some possible war.But if they grow up in peacetime, they will stay in their own country and do many little evils. A: What kind of evil are you referring to? SOCRATES: Be thieves, robbers, pickpockets, strippers, robbers of temples, kidnappers of children; if they are born to be glib, they become informers, perjurers, or bribe-takers. A: You say that these are small evils. I think it is conditional, because the number of such people is still small. Su: Yes.Because the lesser evil is smaller than the greater evil.As far as the harm done to the country is concerned, these evils put together are nothing compared with the harm done by a tyrant and tyrant, as the saying goes.However, once such people and their followers are in a considerable number in a country and realize their own power, they will take advantage of the ignorance of the people and will take one of their accomplices, the one with the strongest heart in their hearts. The man of the great tyrant takes the throne of the tyrant and tyrant. A: Naturally, because he is perhaps the most authoritarian. SOCRATES: So, if the people let it go, there is of course no problem.However, if the country rejects him, then he will punish his motherland (if he can do it) just like the person mentioned above who beat his parents, and bring new close friends under his control And then, to bring under his servitude the former dear mother country, as the Cretans call it, or fatherland.And this is probably the purpose of such a person's desire. A: Yes, that is the purpose. SOCRATES: So, isn't the private life of such people like this before they come to power: they are at first in the company of sycophants who are always ready to help them; Their own friendship, although once the goal is achieved, they will sing another tune. A: Indeed. S: So they never really make friends with anyone in their life.They are either masters or servants of others.It is in the nature of tyrants to never appreciate freedom and true friendship. A: Absolutely. SOCRATES: So, isn't it right if we call them unreliable people? A: Of course! SOCRATES: If the definition of justice we have agreed upon is correct, our description of injustice cannot be more correct. A: Indeed, we are correct. SOCRATES: Let us say a word about the worst of men.They are the ones who can do things in their sleep when they are awake. A: Exactly. SOCRATES: This is precisely what happens when a born tyrant gains absolute power.The longer he holds this power, the more tyrant he becomes.Glaucon (plugging in at this moment): It is inevitable. SOCRATES: Can't you see now: the worst people are also the most unfortunate?And, therefore, the more despotic power he wields, and the longer he remains in power, the more, and the longer, his misfortune, in fact?Of course, everyone has their own opinions. Grid: Certainly.Indeed. SOCRATES: Isn't a man with an autocratic monarch like a country with autocratic politics?Isn't a democratic person just like a country with democratic politics?and so on. G: Of course it is. SOCRATES: We may infer as follows: In virtue and happiness, different types of individuals contrast like different types of nations.Yeah? G: Why not? SOCRATES: How then does the tyrannical state in respect of virtue compare with the kingly state we first described? G: They are just opposite: one is the best and the other is the worst. SOCRATES: I won't go down to which is the best and which is the worst.Because that is plain and simple.I want you to judge whether they are also so opposite in happiness and unhappiness?Let us not be dazzled by looking at the tyrant alone or his few retinue.If we want to observe the whole city-state both broadly and deeply, we should express our opinions after seeing all its aspects in such a detailed way, and understanding all its practical life thoroughly. G: That's a good motion.Everyone knows that there is no city-state more unfortunate than a city-state ruled by a tyrant, and no city-state is happier than a city-state ruled by a king. Su: Isn’t this a very good suggestion: When discussing the corresponding individual, we require the discussant to understand the subject’s heart and personality through thinking, instead of just looking at the appearance like a child. Bewitched by the majesty and living environment of the tyrant?Only such a man is worthy of judgment, and we should listen to his judgment—especially if he has not only seen the tyrant in public, but has lived with him day and night, and seen him in his own home and What to do in cronies (this is the best occasion to strip away all pretense and see a person's naked soul).Shouldn't we therefore ask him to answer our question: Is the life of the tyrant happy or unhappy in comparison with the lives of other kinds of characters? G: That's the best proposition, too. SOCRATES: Shall we then claim that we have judgment, that we have had experience with tyrants, so that we have someone among ourselves who can answer our questions? Grid: Yes. SOCRATES: Come on, then, let us approach the question in this way.First, please remember that there are similarities between city-states and individual personalities, and then observe each city-state and individual character characteristics one by one. G: What character traits? SOCRATES: Let's talk about a country first.Would you say that a country ruled by a tyrant is free or enslaved? G: Totally enslaved. SOCRATES: But in such a country you see that there are also masters and free men. G: I see such people as a minority, and the (so-called) whole and its best parts in a humiliating and unfortunate slavery. SOCRATES: Therefore, if the individual is like the state, he must be in the same condition. His mind is full of slavery and unfreedom, the best and most rational part of him is enslaved; and a small part, the worst and most violent part, plays the role of tyrant.isn't it? G: It is inevitable. SOCRATES: So do you say that such a soul is enslaved or free? G: I think it's enslavement. SOCRATES: Aren't enslaved and tyrant-ruled cities the least able to do what they really want to do? G: Exactly. SOCRATES: Therefore, the tyrannical mind—meaning the mind as a whole— And least able to do what you want to do.Because it is always driven by mad desires, it is full of confusion and regret. G: Of course. SOCRATES: Is a city-state under the rule of a tyrant necessarily rich or poor? Grid: Poor. SOCRATES: The mind, therefore, must also always be poor and insatiable under the tyranny of a tyrant. Greg: Yes. SOCRATES: And, isn't such a country and such a person necessarily full of fear? G: That's right. SOCRATES: So do you think you can find in any other country more pain, sorrow, resentment, sorrow than here? G: Absolutely not. Su: And, do you think the same is true for people?Is there more of it in any other kind of man than in this tyrant, driven mad by lust? G: How come? SOCRATES: In view of all this, and others like it, I think you will probably judge that such a city-state is the most unfortunate of all city-states. G: Am I wrong to say that? Sue: Exactly.But, given all this same, what must you say about the tyrant individual? G: I must consider him the unluckiest of them all. Sue: You are wrong about that. G: What's wrong? SOCRATES: We do not think that this man has reached the apex of unhappiness. G: So who has reached the apex? SOCRATES: The kind of man I'm pointing out to you, you might think, is even more unfortunate. G: What kind of person? SOCRATES: A man of tyrant temperament, who ceases to live the life of a common citizen, some unfortunate chance unluckily enables him to become a real tyrant and tyrant. G: Based on what has been said above and inferred, I say your words are correct. Su: Good.But this kind of thing is necessarily not enough.We must examine them thoroughly with the following argument.For we are dealing here with the greatest of all problems: the problem of a good life and a bad life. G: Couldn't be more correct. SOCRATES: So consider whether there is some truth in what I say.I think we must draw insights about the problem from the following examples. G: From what examples? SOCRATES: Take for example a wealthy private slaveholder in our city-state who owned a large number of slaves.They are like tyrants in that they rule over many, but differ only in the number of people they rule over. G: Yes, there is a difference. SOCRATES: Then do you know that they are not worried, not afraid of their slaves? G: What are they afraid of? Su: Don't be afraid of anything.But do you know why they are not afraid? Greg: Yes.I know that the entire city-state protects every individual citizen. Su: Well said.But suppose there is a man who owns fifty or more slaves.Now a god has taken him from the city with his wife, children, old and young children, and his wealth slaves, and sent him to a remote place, where there is no free man to rescue him.Think about it, how afraid he would be, worried that he and his wife and children would be wiped out by slaves? G: I think this fear cannot be greater. Su: Didn’t he have to curry favor with some of his slaves at this time, give them many promises, and set them free (although none of them were sincerely voluntary), so that he changed to curry favor with his own slaves? G: Probably it must be so, otherwise he must perish. SOCRATES: But now suppose God has placed many neighbors around him.They forbade anyone to enslave another; if anyone attempted to enslave another, they punished them severely.How about this time? G: I think it's even worse when he's surrounded by enemies. SOCRATES: Is not this the predicament into which a tyrant of the nature we have described, filled with many kinds of fears and desires, is in?He was the only one in the city-state who couldn't travel abroad or attend the festivals that ordinary free citizens loved to watch.Although he longs for these pleasures in his heart, he must live in the forbidden palace like a woman, and envy others that they can travel abroad freely. G: Exactly. SOCRATES: The tyrant, that is, the man whom you judge, because chaos predominates in him with evil results, is the most unfortunate, when he ceases to be an ordinary private citizen and fate makes him When he becomes a true tyrant, who cannot control himself but wants to control others, he must be worse off.It is like forcing a sick or paralyzed man to go to war or to a sporting event instead of resting at home. G: Socrates, your comparison is very apt and your words are very correct. SOCRATES: So, my dear Glaucon, isn't this the most unfortunate situation?Is not the life of tyrants and tyrants more miserable than that of the sort you judge to be the unhappiest? G: Exactly. SOCRATES: So, though some may disagree, it is true that the true tyrant is really the worst kind of slave, who depends on currying off villains.His desire can never be satisfied.If you are good at observing his mind as a whole, you can see his real poverty through the multitude of desires.His life was one of constant fear; and if the state of the country was any indication of that of its ruler, he was as full of unrest and misery as his.Is that right? G: Exactly. SOCRATES: Besides what we have said before, his power will make him more jealous, less faithful, more unjust, less friendly, more impious.His residence is full of dirt.You can see that in consequence he made not only the most miserable man himself, but the most miserable men around him. G: No reasonable person would deny your statement. Su: Hurry up then, now at last you must be the final referee like a final judge.Please identify which kind of person is the happiest, which kind of person is the second happiest, and then evaluate the remaining types of people in the same way, and identify all five types of people in turn: king type, reputation seeker type, oligarch type, democratic type, tyrant type figure. G: This identification is easy to do.They are like the chorus team on the stage, I just arrange them in the order in which they enter the stage.This is both the order of happiness and the order of virtue. SOCRATES: Shall we then hire a herald to pronounce the following judgment, or shall I do it myself? "Glaucon, son of Ariston, has judged: The best and most just man is the happiest man. He is the most regal, the most self-controlled. The worst and most unjust man is the most unfortunate man. He is the most A tyrannical temperament, exercising tyranny not only over himself but over his country". G: It's up to you to announce it yourself. Su: I would like to add a sentence after the above comment: "Whether their character is known to the gods or not, the conclusion of good and evil, luck and misfortune remains the same."May I? G: Add it. Su: Very good.Well, this is one of our proofs.But let's look at the second proof below to see if it makes sense. G: What is the second proof? SOCRATES: Just as the city-state is divided into three classes, so every man's mind can be broken down into three parts.So I think there can be another way of proof. G: What is the way of proof? Su: Please listen to me.I see that there are also three kinds of happiness in these three parts, each corresponding to each other.There are likewise three corresponding desires and dominations. G: Please explain. Su: We say that a part is for people to learn.The other part is what people use to get angry.There is also a third part; this part, because of its internal diversity, is difficult for us to sum up in a simple and suitable word, and we can only name it by one of its strongest principal components.We call it the "desire" part because of its strong desires for food and love, and all the associated desires.We call it the "love of money" part, again from the fact that money is the primary means of satisfying such desires. Grid: Yes. SOCRATES: If we should also say that its pleasures and loves are centered on "interests," we should not, for the sake of ease of understanding when we speak of this third part of the soul, gather it under one name and call it Should we be more precise, call it the "love of money" part or the "love of profit" part? G: Anyway, I think so. S: And what about the passion part?Didn't we say it's always and whole about excellence, victory, and fame? Greg: Indeed. S: Can we properly call it the "Ai Sheng" part or the "Ai Kyung" part? G: Couldn't be more appropriate. SOCRATES: But it must be clear to everyone that the part of us that studies is always striving to know the truth of things, and that of the three parts of the mind it is the least concerned with money and honor. Greg: Yes. Su: Is it appropriate for us to use this name for the part of "love learning" and "love wisdom"? G: Of course it does. SOCRATES: In some minds this part reigns, in others one of the two, according to the case.right? G: That's right. SOCRATES: It is for this reason that we say that there are three basic types of man: the philosopher or lover of wisdom, the lover of victory, and the lover of profit. G: Exactly. Su: Corresponding to the three types of people, there are also three types of happiness. G: Of course. Su: You know what?If you were to ask these three kinds of people one by one, which of these three kinds of life is the happiest, they would all say that their kind of life is the happiest.Rich men will assert that the pleasures of being respected and of learning are worthless compared with profit, unless they also yield money. G: Really. SOCRATES: How about the lovers?He will regard the pleasures of money as baseness, and the pleasures of learning as idle nonsense (unless it also brings respect).Yeah? Greg: Yes. SOCRATES: What do you think the philosopher thinks when he compares other pleasures with the pleasure of knowing the truth and dedicating himself forever to the study of it?He would consider other pleasures so far from being real pleasures that he would call them "necessary" pleasures.For he would not want them if he were not bound by necessity.Yeah? G: Undoubtedly. SOCRATES: Well, since there are different terms for the three pleasures and the three lives, the difference is not simply about which is more honorable and which is shameful, or which is better and which is worse, but rather So how do we decide which is the most true statement about which is actually more happy or free from pain? G: I really can't tell. Sue: Oh, please think of it this way.What should be used as a standard to make a correct judgment on a matter?Isn't experience, knowledge, and reasoning used as the standard?Is there any better standard than them? G: Not anymore. SOCRATES: Consider, then, which of these three kinds of people has the greatest experience of all three pleasures?Do you think the lover of profit can have more pleasure in learning about truth itself than the philosopher in gaining money? G: Absolutely not.For it is necessary for the philosopher to experience the other two pleasures from his childhood; but not only does the lover not necessarily experience the pleasure of learning the nature of things, but, even if he wanted to, it is not easy to do so. SOCRATES: The philosopher, therefore, is superior to the lover of interests by virtue of his experience of pleasure in two respects. G: It's much smarter. SOCRATES: How does the philosopher compare with the admirer?Is the philosopher not as happy in being respected as the man who loves reverence is in learning knowledge? G: No.Respect is something everyone can earn if they all achieve their goals.Because the rich, the brave, and the wise are widely respected, all experience the joy of being respected.But the pleasure of seeing things as they are is inaccessible to all but philosophers. SOCRATES: Since he has the greatest experience, he is also the most qualified to judge the three pleasures. G: Very qualified. S: And he's the only one who has a combination of knowledge and experience. G: Exactly. SOCRATES: Also, those who have the means or tools necessary for judgment are not lovers of profit or respect, but lovers of wisdom or philosophers. G: What do you mean? SOCRATES: We say that judgment must be arrived at by reasoning.right? Greg: Yes. SO: Reasoning is the philosopher's tool. G: Of course. Su: If wealth and profit are the best criteria for judging things, then the reputation of those who love profit must be the most authentic. G: Definitely. SOCRATES: If respect, victory, and valor are the best criteria for judging things, aren't the things praised by those who love victors and those who love reverence the truest? G: That's pretty clear. SOCRATES: So what if experience, knowledge, and reasoning are the criteria? G: Surely that which is approved by the lover of the wise and the lover of reasoning is the truest. SOCRATES: Of the three pleasures, therefore, the pleasure of that part of the soul in which we learn is the truest pleasure, and the life of the man in whom this part predominates is also the happiest.Yeah? G: How could it not be?In any case, when a man of knowledge says that he is the happiest in life, his words are most reliable. Su: Which kind of life and which kind of happiness should be ranked second? G: The fighters and admirers are obviously the second, because the life and happiness of such people are closer to the first than those of the money earners. SOCRATES: It seems that the life and happiness of the lovers are last. G: Of course.