Chapter 6 Volume 4-1

[Here Ademanthus intervenes with a question. 〕 A: Socrates, if anyone objected to your assertion that you were trying to make our defenders utterly devoid of any happiness, and to make themselves the cause of their own misfortune; though the city was indeed theirs, they never The city-state does not get any benefits. They cannot obtain land like ordinary people, build magnificent houses, buy all kinds of luxurious furniture, use their own things to sacrifice to gods, entertain guests, and win the favor of gods and people. Gold and silver, which you just mentioned, and all that is common to those who wish to be happy; and our defenders are as poor as the mercenaries garrisoning cities, who have nothing to do but stand guard. —How do you reply to this accusation?

SOCRATES: Well, I might add for them: our guards get nothing but food and nothing else, like the others; Go thither; they have no money to give presents to lovers, or otherwise to spend as freely as those who are supposed to be happy.I could add many more such accusations. A: What if these words are included in the accusation? Su: Are you asking us how to answer it? A: Yes. SOCRATES: If we proceed along this line of reasoning, I believe we will find the answer.Our answer will be: It is not surprising that our defenders are said to be the happiest living the life just described.For we have founded this state not for the singularly eminent happiness of one class, but for the greatest happiness of all the citizens; because we think that justice is most likely to be found in a city Injustice is most likely to be found in the worst city-states.When we have found both the just and the unjust states, we may perhaps be able to judge which of the two is happy.At present, I think our first task is to cast a model of a happy country, but not to cast a fragmented country for the happiness of a few people, but to cast a happy country as a whole.

(We will examine the opposite kind of country in a moment.) For example, if we want to paint a statue, someone comes to me and says, "Why don't you use the most beautiful purple color on the most beautiful part of your body?" —The eyes go up, and the eyes are painted black?" For this question, we can definitely think that the following answer is correct: "You don't know, we shouldn't beautify the eyes in this way, otherwise, the eyes It doesn't look like the eyes anymore. The same goes for other organs. We should make the five senses what they should be to make the whole beautiful." So I said: don't force us to give that kind of happiness to the guardian, otherwise we will make them no longer their guardians.You know, we may also dress our peasants in gowns and crowns of gold, and do as much work in the field as they like; let our potters also recline on their couches, feast by the fireside, eat and drink, and make pottery We can do as much as we like; we can make all other people happy in the same way; in this way, the whole country will be happy.But we don't think so.For, if we believed you, the farmer would not be a farmer, the potter would not be a potter, and the rest of the people would not be what they were that formed part of the country.

It is not a big problem if this phenomenon occurs in other kinds of people. For example, a cobbler who is corrupt and does not want to work as a cobbler is not a big problem.But if the kind of people who are defenders of the law and the country cease to be guardians, or only appear to be guardians, then you can see that they will bring about the complete destruction of the whole country, and vice versa, as soon as the defenders become guardians There will be good order and happiness in the country.We want our defenders to be true defenders, not subversives.And those who argue against us think only of peasants drinking at feasts, not of citizens fulfilling their duties to the state.If so, we are talking about two different things, and they are not talking about a country.In appointing our guardians, therefore, we must consider whether we should separate our attention to their greatest happiness, or whether this principle of happiness can be considered apart from the state as a whole.We must persuade the guardians and their supporters to do their best to do their jobs well.Also persuade other people, everyone is like them.In this way, the whole country will develop very harmoniously, and all classes will get the happiness that nature bestows on them.

① Refers to 449A and Chapters 8 and 9.There are four types of degenerate states, but the most opposite type to good states is one, namely tyranny. ②This is an irony with a teasing tone. A: I think you are quite right. Su: I have another idea, I wonder if you agree with it. A: What do you think? SOCRATES: There seem to be two reasons for the degradation of skill. A: Which two reasons? Su: Poor and rich. A: How do they degenerate skill? SOCRATES: It's like this: When a potter becomes rich, think about it, will he still be so diligent about his craft? A: Of course not. S: He will be increasingly lazy and sloppy, won't he?

A: It must be so. SOCRATES: He will turn out to be an increasingly poor potter, won't he? A: Yes, greatly degraded. Su: However, if he has no money, he cannot buy tools and equipment, and he cannot do his job well, nor can he teach his son or apprentice so well. A: Of course not. SOCRATES: So both causes, poverty and wealth, can degrade artisans and their crafts, can't they? A: Obviously so. SOCRATES: So, as can be seen, here we find the second evils, which the defenders must do everything possible to prevent at some point from sneaking into the city-state. A: What harm? Su: Poor and rich.The rich are extravagant, lazy and demand change, and the poor are rough and inferior, which also demand change.

A: That is true; but, Socrates, I also ask, how can our city-states go to war if our country has no money and materials?Especially if you have to fight a rich and powerful city-state. SOCRATES: Obviously, it is more difficult to fight one such enemy; but it is easier to fight two such enemies. A: What does this mean? SOCRATES: First of all, please tell me that if we have to fight, we will be trained fighters and the other side will be an army of rich people, won't we? A: That's right. SOCRATES: Don't you think, Admantus, that one man who is good at boxing can easily beat two big fat rich men who know nothing about boxing?

A: If two people attack one person at the same time, I don't think that person can easily win. SOCRATES: If he can escape in front, and then turn back and knock down the first of the two opponents, if he can do this many times under the burning sun, can't he also win?Couldn't such a fighter knock down even more of that kind of opponent? A: If we can do that, of course there is nothing surprising about victory. Su: Don't you think that rich people have more knowledge and experience in boxing than in military affairs? A: I think so. Su: Therefore, our fist fighter probably can easily defeat twice or three times as many opponents as him.

A: I agree with you because I think you have a point. SOCRATES: If we send an envoy to one of the two enemy countries, and tell them the truth: gold and silver are things we do not have and are not allowed to have, but they can have them, so they will still come to help us in the war and plunder the other country. An enemy country is good. Hearing these words, who would rather fight a thin and strong dog than attack a fat and weak sheep with the dog? A: I don't think anyone would want to fight a dog.But the accumulation of the wealth of many countries in one country may be a danger to the poor country.

SOCRATES: It would be naive of you to think that any other state than the one we have founded deserves to be called a state. A: So what to call it? Su: When referring to other countries, the word "country" should be used in plural, because each of them is many rather than one, as it is said in operas.Every country is divided into two hostile parts, one for the poor and one for the rich, and each of these two parts is divided into many smaller opposing parts.If you treat them all as many, and commit the wealth, power, or population of some to others, you will always have many allies and few enemies.Your nation will be strongest as long as it continues to carry out this established course in earnest.When I say the most powerful, I don't mean the power in name, but the power in reality, even if it has only a thousand warriors.A state "is one" on the scale of our proposed city-state is hard to find in Greece or anywhere outside Greece, and "seems to be one" You can find countries many, many times larger than ours.Perhaps, you have a different idea?

A: No, really. SOCRATES: Therefore, when considering the size of the city-state or the size of the territory to be owned, it seems that the rulers of our country should set an optimal limit that cannot be exceeded. A: What is the best limit? SOCRATES: The state is large enough to remain united—I think that is the optimum limit, and it cannot be exceeded. A: Very good. SOCRATES: This is, therefore, another mission which we must entrust to the defenders of our country, to guard our city by all means, so that it is neither too small nor merely large, but It became a sufficiently large and unified city-state. A: The mission we entrusted to them may not be considered a difficult mission. Su: There is another easier task, which we mentioned earlier①, that is, if the descendant of the guardian becomes inferior, he should be demoted to another class, and if the descendant of the lower class is gifted, he should be promoted for the guardian.The purpose of this is to show that: all citizens without exception, each person should be assigned what task he is suitable for, so that everyone can do his job, and one person is one person instead of many people, so that the entire city-state becomes a unified one. rather than multiple splits. ①415B. A: Yes, this mission is easier than that. SOCRATES: My good Admantus, the things we entrust to the rulers of our country are not, as some may think, so many difficult tasks, but are all easily accomplished, provided the rulers pay attention to one thing. The so-called big things that people often say will do. (I don't like to call it a "big thing", I'd rather call it a "problem-solving thing".) A: What's the matter? SU: Education and training.For, if people are well-educated to be sensible people, then they can easily understand how to deal with all these things and other things that I have not mentioned at the moment, such as marriage and having children. —All this should be done on the principle that, as the saying goes, "friends do not divide each other." A: This is probably the best way. Su: Moreover, once the country moves well, it will move forward at an ever-increasing speed, like a wheel turning.Because good training and education lead to good physical fitness, and good physical fitness and good education will produce a better physical fitness than the previous generation. This is not only beneficial to other purposes, but also beneficial to the progress of the race. Same with other animals. A: Makes sense. SOCRATES: So in a nutshell, the leaders of our country must keep an eye on this, lest the country be corrupted unconsciously.They must guard it at all times, not to allow sports and music renovations that violate the established order.They must do their utmost to guard.People love to hear when someone says The singers sing the latest song① ① Epic "Odyssey" I, 35── At that time, they were worried that people might understand that what the poet praised was not a new song, but a song with a new pattern, so the leaders themselves should not praise such things, and should point out that this is not what the poet intended.For any reformation of music is fraught with danger to the whole country and should be forewarned.Because, unless the fundamental law of the country changes, the style of music will not change anyway.This is what Dimon said, and I believe him. A: Yes.You also count me as one who agrees with this statement. SOCRATES: So it seems that our defenders must be here - in the music - on guard. A: This kind of illegality is indeed easy to sneak in quietly. Su: Yes.Because it is considered no more than a game, without any harm①. ①Compared to reading "Law" chapter 797A-B, where people are warned not to renovate in children's play. A: There is no other harm, but it penetrates little by little, quietly into people's character and habits, and then flows into the relationship between people with increasing force, and then the relationship between people unscrupulously To the legal and political system, Socrates, which at last destroys everything public and private. ① Compare and read 389D. Su: Yeah!Is that right? A: I believe so. SOCRATES: Then, as we said at the beginning, our children must play legitimate games in accordance with the spirit of the law.Because, if the game is a game that does not comply with the law, children will also become children who violate the law, and they cannot become law-abiding citizens of good character. A: Sure. SOCRATES: If, therefore, from the very beginning of play, children are taught by means of music to obey the law, and this law-abiding spirit in turn opposes illegal entertainment, then this law-abiding spirit will dominate the children everywhere. behaviors that make them healthy and healthy.Once there is any change in the country, they will rise up and restore the inherent order. A: Indeed. ① Illegal (παραLBμC′α), in addition to its moral implications (537E) also implies illegal renovation in music. SOCRATES: When children grow up in this kind of education, they can rediscover for themselves those seemingly trivial rules that have been abandoned by their predecessors. A: Which rule? Su: For example, the following: Young people should be silent when they see elders coming; they should stand up and give up their seats to show respect; they should be filial to their parents; Pay attention to other things like this.You may have a different opinion? A: I agree with you. SOCRATES: But I think it foolish to enact these rules into law.For a law that is merely written down on paper cannot be obeyed, nor can it last. A: So how can they be observed? SOCRATES: O Admantus, where a man's childhood education leads him, it can determine where he will go later. "Respond with the same voice, seek with the same spirit"—— Isn't that always the case? A: Indeed. SOCRATES: Until a great result is reached, which may be good or bad. A: Of course. SOCRATES: For these reasons, I do not wish to enact such matters any longer. A: There are good reasons. SOCRATES: But, about commerce, about people's dealings with each other in the marketplace, and, if you will, contracts with artisanal workers, about insult and injury lawsuits, about the prosecution of civil cases and the selection of jurors, and so on. Questions may be raised as to the taxes which must be levied in the marketplace and in the seaports.In short, the rules of the market, public security, seaports, and other such things, my God, do we have to make laws one by one? A: No, it is not appropriate to impose so many legal provisions on excellent people.What rules are needed, most of them will easily find out by themselves. SOCRATES: Yes, my friend, as long as the gods help them to preserve the laws we have made for them. A: Otherwise, they will work endlessly on making such cumbersome laws, and spend their lives changing them in order to perfect them. SOCRATES: You mean to say that such people live in the same way as those who are chronically diseased by excessive indulgence are unwilling to abandon a system of life that is unhealthy. A: That's right. SOCRATES: It is true that they lived a life of bliss.They go to the doctor and take medicines that do nothing but complicate and aggravate their disease: and they keep hoping that someone will tell them a panacea that will restore them to health. A: Most people with this disease look like this. SO: Yes, and it's interesting, whoever speaks the truth to them, tells them: If they do not cease to eat and drink, to prowl, and to idle about, it is obvious that neither medicine nor cauterization nor surgery, nor spell nor talisman nor any other cure can cure them. —Whoever says this to them, they will regard as their worst enemy. A: It's not funny at all, because it's not good to be angry at someone who tells the truth. Su: I think you don't seem to like this kind of person. A: I really don't like it. SOCRATES: If a country behaves like the people I just said, you probably won't praise its behaviour.Have you not seen the behavior of some countries in the same way?The politics there is bad, but citizens are forbidden to touch the entire national system, and any attempt to change the national system will be punished with death; but at the same time, no matter who, as long as he can serve the citizens living in this bad political order with great enthusiasm, in order to please them They do not hesitate to flatter and flatter them, can pry into their minds, and subtly satisfy their wishes. They regard this kind of person as an excellent person with great wisdom and great wisdom and respect them. A: Yes, I think the behavior of this state is the same as that of the sick, and I can't praise it anyway. SOCRATES: But what about those who wish to serve such a country with devotion?Can you not praise them for their bravery and disinterestedness? A: I praise them, but I don't praise those who lack self-knowledge, because many people praise them and think they are really politicians. Su: What do you mean?Don't you forgive them a little?Do you think he can disbelieve a man who cannot measure, and many who cannot measure, and yet they tell him that he measures four cubits? A: How can he not believe it? SOCRATES: So don't be angry with them.Because, aren't they also quite pitiful? They make and revise laws as I have just said, always hoping to find a way to put an end to the commercial and other evils I just said, and they don't understand that they are cutting nine. The head of a snake. ①The strange snake in ancient Greek mythology had nine heads, one of which was cut off and two were born again. A: Indeed, that is exactly what they did. SOCRATES: I do not think, therefore, that the true legislator ought to expend his energies on laws and constitutions to do such things, whether in countries with bad political order or in countries with good political order: because in countries with bad political order Laws and constitutions are useless in a country, but in a well-ordered country, some laws and constitutions are not difficult to devise, and some can be easily derived from the laws and regulations of the predecessors. A: So, is there anything else we need to do in terms of legislation? SOCRATES: There is nothing for us to do, Apollo at Delphi has work to do, he has the greatest, noblest and most important laws to prescribe. A: What are there? SO: Temples and ceremonies dedicated to gods, and other forms of worship of gods, demigods, and heroes, as well as rites necessary for the burial of the dead and for the exorcism of ghosts.These things are unknown to us, and we, the founders of a city, would not, if we had reason, commit the laws concerning them to any other interpreter than to this god of our ancestry. .For this god is the god who explained to all mankind these religious laws of their ancestors, and our ancestors communicated his explanations on the throne of the great god on the navel stone in the middle of the earth. A: You are right, we must do this. SOCRATES: So, son of Ariston, your city-state may be said to be established.The next thing is to get enough light somewhere to illuminate yourself, and call your brother, Polemachus, and other friends to help you, look around, and see if we How can one find out where in the city there is justice and where there is injustice, and what is the difference between the two, and whether justice or injustice is necessary for a man to be happy, whether gods and men or not? know ①. ①367E. Glaucon: Nonsense, you promised to find justice yourself.You have said that you are an ungodly man if you do not try to help justice by all means. SOCRATES: I did say so, I must do this, but you should also help me. G: We would. SOCRATES: So I hope to find it in the following way.I think that our city-state is supposed to be good if it is rightly established. Grid: Definitely. Su: Then it is conceivable that this country must be wise, brave, temperate and just. G: That's pretty obvious. SOCRATES: Suppose, therefore, that we have found one of these properties in this country, it is the remaining ones which we have not found.right? ① Here is playing with logical inferences. G: Why not? SOCRATES: Just as there are four other things, if we seek one of them in something and find it at the beginning, then this is enough for us.But if we find the other three, this is enough to know the fourth we are looking for, since it cannot be anything but the one that remains. G: That's right. SOCRATES: Well, since the things we are seeking now are also four, can't we also seek them in the same way? G: Of course. SOCRATES: And the first thing I see clearly in our country is wisdom, and there is something peculiar about this thing. G: What's so special about it? SOCRATES: I think the country we are describing is indeed wise, because it is well planned, isn't it? Greg: Yes. SOCRATES: Well planning itself is obviously a kind of knowledge.For it is knowledge, not ignorance, that makes good plans. G: Apparently so. S: But in one country there is a great variety of knowledge. G: Of course. SOCRATES: Is it not, then, that a country is said to be wise and well-conceived because of its knowledge of carpentry? G: Absolutely not.Based on this, it can only be said that this country has a well-developed wood manufacturing industry. SOCRATES: So a nation cannot be called wise because it has knowledge of woodwork, and is able to contrive to produce the best woodwork. G: Absolutely not. SOCRATES: So, can it be called wise because it is good at making bronzes or something like that? G: No, not at all. Su: I think, we can't rely on the knowledge of agricultural production either!For this knowledge can only give it the name of agricultural development. G: I think so. SOCRATES: In the country we have just established, do some citizens have a kind of knowledge that is not used to consider a particular aspect of the country, but is only used to consider the country as a whole, to improve What about its internal and external relations? G: Yes, there is such a knowledge. Su: What kind of knowledge is this?Where is it? G: This knowledge is that of the defenders, among those rulers whom we have just called defenders in the strict sense. SOCRATES: Then, what name do you intend to call the country with this knowledge? G: I'd say it's thoughtful, really intelligent. Su: Which kind of people do you think there are more people in our country?Are there more coppersmiths, or are there more true defenders of the country? G: Of course there are far more coppersmiths. SOCRATES: Is this the least number of defenders of the country, compared with all kinds of people who have a certain field of knowledge and have received a certain name related to the profession? G: Much less. SOCRATES: From this it follows that a state established according to nature is said to be wise as a whole, because of its least numbered part and the smallest part of this part, which lead and rule the knowledge that its people have.And, as it is known, only this knowledge is worthy of the name of wisdom, and those who are capable of it are always, by the law of nature, the fewest. G: Exactly. ① "Nature" and the "nature" and "nature" used in the following texts are a word in Greek and have the same meaning. SOCRATES: Now we have more or less found one of our four natures, and found its place in this country. G: In any case, I think it has been adequately found. SOCRATES: Next, it should not be difficult to discover in what part of the country bravery itself and that which gives it the name of bravery are located! G: Why do you say that? SOCRATES: For whoever speaks of a country as cowardly or courageous can think of any other part of it than that part which goes to war in its defense? G: Nobody thinks about other people. SOCRATES: I think it is so because of the nature of the state not to depend on the bravery or cowardice of other people. G: Yes, you can't depend on other people's bravery or not. SOCRATES: So a nation is said to be brave because of the bravery of a certain part of itself.Because of the faculty of this part of the population, that under all circumstances they retain a belief in fearful things, that the things they ought to be afraid of are those things and things of that kind which the legislators have taught them in education. matter.Isn't that what you call bravery? G: I don't fully understand what you're saying, please say it again. Sue: I mean, to be brave is to persevere. G: What kind of hold? SOCRATES: It is to keep the beliefs about what is to be feared—that is, what to be afraid of—that the law has established through education.What I mean by "whatever the circumstances" is that the brave man always keeps the faith and does not abandon it, whether in distress or pleasure, in desire or fear.I can explain it with an analogy if you want to hear it. G: I want to hear your explanation. SOCRATES: You know that if a dyer wants to dye wool purple, he always first selects a white wool from among all the many colors, and then goes through a painstaking and careful preparatory finishing so that this white wool can be as bright as possible. Successfully dyed, proceed to dyeing only after selection and finishing.Things dyed by this process stay in color.No matter whether you use alkaline water or not when washing clothes, the color will not fade.But if it's not well prepared, you can imagine what happens when people dye things purple or whatever. ①At that time, Greeks mostly washed their clothes with alkaline water soaked in plant ash.