Chapter 5 Volume 3-2

①A complete poem in ancient Greece, including verse, rhythm and harmony.The so-called "harmony" or "harmony" is a high-low tone system, which is what we call the "tune" or "tune" of a song now. G: Ah, yes, I know that. Su: So as far as the words are concerned, there is no difference between the words I want to sing and the words I want to say, they must conform to the content and form of what we have said. A: Yes. Su: Also, the key and rhythm must also match the lyrics. G: Of course. Su: But we said that we don't need to have mournful and sad words in the lyrics.

G: We don't need to. SOCRATES: And what is an elegiac tone?Tell me, because you know music. Grid: Mixed Lydian, high-pitched Lydian, and similar tones are elegiac tones. SOCRATES: Then we must discard these, for they are of no use to aspiring women in general, let alone men. Grid: Exactly. Su: Besides, drinking alcohol is the most inappropriate thing for a guardian, and neither is listlessness. G: Of course. SOCRATES: So what tunes are this soft and decadent? Ge: Iozuya tune, and some Lydian tunes can be said to be decadent. SOCRATES: Well, my friend, what use is this delusion to a soldier?

G: Useless.It looks like you're left with Dorian or Phrygian. Su: I don't understand these tunes. I hope there is a tune that can properly imitate the brave men, imitate them to face the battle calmly, to be reckless, to weather the wind and rain, to face all difficulties, to face the dangers with ease, and to see death as the home.I would also like to have another tune, imitating people who work in ordinary times, imitating them voluntarily, not compelled, or trying to persuade and pray to others--if the other party is a god, it is through prayer, if it is a person, it is through prayer. Persuasion or teaching—or listening to other people's prayers, advice or criticism, as long as they are good words, follow the good words without pride, be modest and prudent, and accept their righteousness.Let's just have these two tunes.They are hard and soft, and can properly imitate the voices of people's success and failure, temperance and bravery.

A: The two tunes you need are the Dorian and Phrygian tunes I just mentioned. SOCRATES: Then, in playing and singing, we don't need instruments with many strings, instruments that can play all the tones. A: I think your words are right. SOCRATES: We should not support those who make polystringed and polytuned instruments such as the harp and the tragon. A: I don't think so. SOCRATES: Shall we then have flute-makers and flutists come to our city-state?That is, is the flute the instrument with the widest range, while other polyphonic instruments merely imitate the flute? G: That's pretty clear.

SOCRATES: All you have left is the lyre and the lyre, which are used in the town; and in the country the shepherds play a kind of piccolo. G: The result of our discussion is this. SOCRATES: We favor Apollo and his instruments over Mathias and his instruments. ①My friends, this choice is not our original idea. ① Apollo represents reason, and the instrument used is the lyre (AH′ρα); Mathias is the god of the forest, representing lust, and the instrument used is the flute (αH'AB). G: Really!I also think it is not our original idea. Sue: Oh!We have inadvertently been purifying this city-state, which we just said is too extravagant.

G: We have a good point. Su: Well then, let us continue with the work of purification!Rhythm should be considered after tune.We should not pursue complex rhythms and various rhythms. We should consider what is an orderly and courageous rhythm of life, and then make the steps and tunes suitable for the words of this life, rather than make the words of this life fit the sound. steps and tunes.But what those rhythms are, that's for you to tell us, as you told us above which tunes. G: I really can't say that.There are three forms in the composition of steps, just as there are four forms in the composition of scales. I understand these and I can tell you.As to which steps imitate which life, I do not know.

SOCRATES: We are also going to ask Damon about this, 1 and ask him which rhythms are suitable for vileness, violence, madness or other evils, and which rhythms are suitable for the opposite content.I seem to remember Damon saying something obscure about a polyrhythmic march, and long and short frets and heroic rhythms, arranged in an order I can't figure out, with some equal in height and some in high and low. low, and some of different lengths; I seem to recall him calling one short long case and the other long short case, plus long or short syllables.There are places in these conversations where it seems to me that he praises or depreciates the meter of the foot as much as he does the rhythm itself;As I said just now, you can ask Dimon for advice on these.It is not easy to make sense of these.What do you think?

① A famous musician in the 5th century BC. G: Yes, I agree. Su: But there is one thing you can decide right away——beauty and ugliness follow the rhythm of good and bad. G: Of course. Su: Besides, a good rhythm follows a good word, like a shadow.Bad rhythm follows bad writing.The same goes for tone.Because we have already said that the rhythm and tone follow the words, but it is not the words that follow the rhythm and tone. Ge: Obviously, the two must follow the words. Su: What do you think of the words and the style of the words?Are they consistent with the mental state of the mind?

G: Of course. SOCRATES: Everything else follows the text? Greg: Yes. SOCRATES: Well, good speech, good intonation, good style, and good rhythm all come from a good state of mind. The so-called good state of mind does not mean the state of mind we use to euphemistically call those honest and honest people without brains, but the state of mind. A really good state of mind for those of good intellect and good character. G: Exactly. Su: Then, if young people want to do what they should do, shouldn't they pursue these things anytime and anywhere? G: They should. Su: Painting is definitely full of these characteristics, and other similar crafts such as weaving, embroidery, architecture, furniture making, animal bodies, and the natural gestures of plants and trees are also full of these qualities.For in these things there is beauty and ugliness.Bad style, bad rhythm, bad intonation, something like bad words, bad character.Conversely, good conduct is akin to wisdom and good character.

G: Exactly. SOCRATES: So the problem is only with the poet?Shall we supervise them, and compel them to cultivate in the psalms an image of good character, or we'd rather have no psalms at all?Shall we similarly supervise other artisans, and prevent them from depicting evil, licentiousness, baseness, and foul spirits, whether in painting or sculpture, or architecture, or any work of art?Any artist who refuses to obey should not be allowed to exist among us, otherwise our guardians have been exposed to the image of evil since childhood, and we will be affected by it, just like cattle and sheep lying on poisonous weeds, chewing the cud, and those who are close to the ink are black, unconsciously. It was a big mistake.Therefore, we must look for some great artists and masters, and use their great talents and virtues to open up a road so that our young people can enter a healthy country; what we see with our eyes, what we hear with our ears, works of art, everywhere They are all; making them feel like sitting on the spring breeze like falling into the rain, subtly influenced, unknowingly influenced, and blended with beauty and reason since childhood.

G: For them, this can be said to be the best education. SOCRATES: My dear Glaucon!It is for this reason that the education of literature and art in the childhood stage is the most important.A child who has received a good education from an early age, rhythm and harmony have penetrated into the depths of his soul, and firmly rooted there, will become gentle and polite; if he has received a bad education, the result will be the opposite.Furthermore, a properly educated child is also most sensitive to the shortcomings of artificial works or natural objects, so he will be very disgusted with ugly things, and will appreciate the beautiful things very much, feel inspired by them, and absorb nourishment from them, so as to make his own The mind grows beautifully and kindly. For any ugly thing, he can unconsciously condemn it as if he dislikes the stench. Although he is still young, he still knows it but doesn't know why.When he grows up and comes to reason, he will feel familiar and welcome him forward, because the upbringing he has received makes him seek the same spirit, which is very natural. Ge: At least in my opinion, this is the reason why we should pay attention to music and art education in childhood. SOCRATES: Just as when we were learning to read, we could safely think of ourselves as literate only when we knew the whole alphabet, which was very few.Regardless of whether the characters are large or small, we dare not ignore its constituent elements, and we are eager to know them wherever we are, otherwise, we always feel that we cannot be regarded as truly literate. ① Plato often uses letters or elements (σEBιGJα) to illustrate the acquisition of knowledge, the relationship between elements and compounds, the principle of classification, and the theory of ideas. ② One of Plato's basic principles holds that reality has nothing to do with seemingly important characteristics such as the size of things. G: You are quite right. S: Likewise, for example, letters appear in water or in a mirror.We would not know these images without first knowing the letters themselves.Because knowing both belong to the same skill and the same learning. G: Exactly. SOCRATES: So, indeed, by the same token, we and our guardians, who are to be educated, are also able to recognize the virtues of temperance, courage, generosity, nobility, etc. Knowing all combinations in which they are included, that is, we recognize them for themselves and their reflections wherever they occur, not ignoring them in both large and small things, convinced that knowing them Both itself and its image belong to the same skill and one learning—we and our guardians cannot be regarded as musical and literary people until we can do this.isn't it? G: Exactly. SOCRATES: Then if there is a person who has the inner beauty of the spiritual state in the soul, and the same kind of corresponding harmonious beauty in the corporeal posture and demeanor,-such a beautiful person, in a contemplative appreciation Isn't it the most beautiful landscape in the eyes of the family? G: That's the most beautiful. Su: Besides, the most beautiful is always the loveliest. G: Of course. Su: Then, a person who has really received a happy education will be like friends at first sight with his colleagues; but he will stay away from those who are not harmonious. Ge: Of course he hates people with spiritual flaws; but he can still love those with physical flaws. Su: According to what you said, I guess you have such a good friend, but I agree with you for making such a distinction.Just tell me: can indulgence and temperance go hand in hand? G: How can it be?Excessive pleasure, like excessive pain, can make a person lose his composure. SOCRATES: Can indulgence go hand in hand with any other virtue? Grid: Can't. Su: Can it go hand in hand with brutality and wantonness? G: Of course. SOCRATES: Is there any greater and more intense pleasure than lust? G: No, it doesn't get any crazier than that. SOCRATES: Is not right love a temperate and harmonious love for beautiful and orderly things? G: I totally agree. SOCRATES: Can true love, then, approach it with anything that approaches madness, that approaches indulgence? Grid: Can't. SOCRATES: Then, there is a clear distinction between true love and self-indulgence.The true lover and the beloved do not stink like the whore. G: Indeed, Socrates, there is absolutely no resemblance between them. SOCRATES: That is very good. In the city-state we are about to establish, we seem to be able to make such a law that a lover may kiss, approach, and caress the beloved, as a father does to a son; if he asks the beloved what to do It must also be out of righteousness.In other forms of contact with the beloved, he is never allowed to take any action beyond this track, otherwise he will be condemned for his vulgar taste and lack of real musical and artistic education. G: Indeed. S: So, you also agree that our discussion on music education can end here?It seems to me that this is a fitting end.The ultimate goal of music education is to achieve the love of beauty. G: I agree. SO: After musical education, young people should receive physical exercise. G: Of course. Su: In terms of sports, our guardians must also undergo rigorous training from childhood and throughout their lives.This is what I saw, what do you think?Because I think a good body does not necessarily create a good mind and character.On the contrary, a good mind and character make the best of a natural constitution, don't you think? G: I think exactly like you. SOCRATES: If we train the mind sufficiently, and then leave it in charge of the details of the maintenance of the body, we just point out the standard, don't be verbose, do you think it will work? Grid: OK. SOCRATES: We said that the Guardians had to abstain from drinking. They were the last people in the world to drink. Ge: A guardian wants another guardian to protect him. How can there be such absurd things in the world? S: What about food?Our Guardians are fighters in the greatest contest, aren't they? Greg: Yes. SOCRATES: Is the habit of maintaining the body of the fighters we have seen so far adapted to this task? G: Maybe it's okay. Su: Ah, they love to sleep. This is a very dangerous habit for health.Have you ever noticed that they spend almost all their lives in sleep, and that any deviation from the prescribed diet and lifestyle can cause serious diseases? G: I have noticed this situation. Su: Then, fighters in war should need more kinds of exercise.They must be like police dogs that stay up all night; their vision and hearing must be extremely sharp; in their fighting life, they can swallow all kinds of drinking water and food; G: Exactly. SOCRATES: Then, isn't the best physical education closely related to the musical and artistic education we just described? G: What do you mean? SOCRATES: This refers to a simple and flexible sport, especially that kind of physical exercise for combat. G: Excuse me for the specific method. SOCRATES: The method can be learned from Homer.You know that in war life Homer never gives fish to the heroes when they dine together, though the regiment is quartered near the shore of the Hellespont; Because this is the easiest thing for soldiers to do, as long as they can find fire, it can be done anywhere, and there is no need to carry many pots and pans with them. ①The strait mouth of the Black Sea leading to the Mediterranean Sea, now the Dardanelles. G: Exactly. Sue: As far as I know, Homer never mentioned sweets either.Isn't this something every fighter who works out can understand? ——To train their bodies well, this kind of thing must be quit. G: They understood this truth and got rid of this kind of thing.They are doing it right. SOCRATES: Then, my friend, since you think this is right, you certainly do not approve of Syracuse's banquets and Sicilian dishes. G: I wouldn't approve of it. SOCRATES: You wouldn't let a man get a Corinthian girl to be his mistress, if you want him to take good care of himself. G: Of course not. SOCRATES: You wouldn't approve of the famous Athenian pastries, would you? G: Absolutely not. S: Because I think all this mixed diet is like polyphonic polyrhythmic poetry. G: Indeed. Su: Complex music produces indulgence; complex food produces disease.As for simple music and art education, it can produce spiritual temperance, and simple physical exercise can produce physical health. Grid: Exactly. SOCRATES: Once indulgence and disease are rampant in the city-state, how about the court drugstores everywhere, and the lawyers and doctors arrogant, although most free people will have to bow to them. G: It is inevitable. Su: Doctors and judges with rare goods are needed not only by ordinary people and craftsmen, but also by people who have received the education of free people.Can you see what is more sufficient to prove that education in a city-state is ugly and evil?These judges and doctors are all imported (because you lack such talents among yourself), don't you think this is a clear proof that education is extremely ugly and shameful? G: There is nothing more shameful than that. Su: Ah, there is another situation that you think is even more shameful than the one just mentioned?A person not only spends most of his time fighting in the courts, sometimes being the plaintiff and sometimes the defendant; Tricks, intrigues, reasoning without reason; and all these efforts for the sake of vain quarrels.Because he didn't know that it was much better and nobler to arrange his life without those careless jurors. G: Really, this kind of thing is even more shameful than what I said before. Su: Wouldn’t it be more shameful to seek medical treatment all by yourself, except for injuries or occasional seasonal diseases?Idleness and the sleepy way of life of which we have spoken, and the rheumatism of the body as a swamp, compelled the descendants of Asclepius to invent such names as bloating, dysentery, and the like. Come on, wouldn't it be more shameful? ① A doctor in the Greek army during the Trojan War. G: Those are some weird medical terms, indeed. SOCRATES: I think there was no such thing in the time of Asklebis himself.I deduce this from the story of Troy.When Eurypyrus was wounded at Troy, the woman gave him prana, sprinkled with barley flour and small pieces of cheese, apparently as a hot medicine.At that time none of the doctors said that she had taken the wrong medicine, nor that Petroclus, the nurse, had made any mistake. ① Plato probably quoted Homer's epic from his own memory.The statement here is different from what is recorded in the current epic. At Ⅺ624, it is said that Hecumede mixed the wine for Machaon and Winstall. G: Wounded, it's weird to give him this drug. S: You will not be surprised if you remember that before Herodikos doctors did not treat diseases with our present medicines.Herodikos was a trainer, and because he was sick, he confused gymnastics with medicine, and ended up tormenting himself mainly, and then many who came after him. G: How come? Su: He was suffering from an incurable disease, and he lived for many years thanks to years of continuous and careful care of himself.But his chronic illness has never been cured.In this way, he did nothing but treat himself all his life, worrying all day long whether he had neglected the prescribed health habits; relying on his own set of medical skills, he won the victory of old age and death in the painful struggle. Dead Championship ①. ① Plato does not approve of treating diseases in this way.The tone of ridicule and sarcasm is vivid on the paper. G: This is a noble prize for his medical skills! Sue: He deserves it.People like him do not know that Asklebis did not pass on to his posterity because he did not know or was not familiar with this kind of medicine, but because he understood that in an orderly city-state, everyone has his due. Do your duty.People have no time to get sick, and it is impossible to treat diseases endlessly in a lifetime.We find this absurd when we see it among the workers, but we ignore it when we see it among the rich and the so-called blessed. G: How could this be? Su: When a carpenter is sick, he asks the doctor to give him medicine. He vomits out the disease, or pours out the disease, or uses cauterization or surgery.However, if the doctor told him to take a long-term recuperation and put on bandages all over his head, he would reply immediately, saying that he had no time to be sick, thinking about his illness all day long, putting aside his current work, and living such a life was meaningless.He was going to say goodbye to the doctor and go home to his old job.Maybe his health has actually improved, and he can continue to work as usual, or maybe his health can't bear it, so he abandons all troubles and dies. Ge: This kind of person can be called a person who is good at using medicine. SOCRATES: Is it because he has a job to do, and if he can't do it, he's not worth living? G: Apparently so. Su: But we don't mean that a rich person also has this kind of prescribed work to do, and if he doesn't do it, he doesn't think it's worth living. G: As far as I know, not so. Sue: Oh!Have you ever heard the words of Fukulides, "When you have eaten your fill, you should be virtuous." ① Or translated as "after having money..." G: I think you should be moral before you have enough to eat. S: Well, let's not quarrel with him on that point.Let's get this straight: Should rich people be ethical?If you don't talk about it, is it interesting to live?Was it not a hindrance to them to follow the advice of Phuculides that they should take care of their bodies all the time?Although it is undoubtedly a big obstacle for those who specialize in woodworking and other crafts. ①Wealthy people are naturally "after eating..." G: Indeed, taking too much care of the body in addition to physical exercise is the greatest hindrance in this respect. ①In "Gorgias" (464B), medical skills are considered to be gymnastics. Su: This has created a lot of burdens for housework management, military service, and office work.Worst of all it makes any learning, thinking or contemplative meditation difficult.From day to day I always suspect headaches, dizziness, and nervous tension, and assign these to philosophical research as the general cause.In this way, people will always feel that there is one kind of discomfort in the body, and they are always troubled.This is a stumbling block to such moral practices and exercises as study and contemplation. G: Of course it will. SOCRATES: Well, we can say that Asklebis already knew this truth; for those who have a good constitution and a healthy lifestyle, but only some local diseases, he taught the medical method, and cured the disease with medicine or surgery. , and order them to live as usual, without hindering each one from fulfilling his civic duties.As for a man with serious systemic disease internally, he does not want to treat them by prescribed diet and by gradual withdrawal or infusion, and let him continue to live in misery, and let him produce offspring of an equally bad constitution.For patients whose physique does not meet the general standards, he thinks it is not worth treating him, because such people are of little use to himself or the country. G: According to you, Asklebis is the most politically minded man! Sue: Obviously yes.His children were like this too, good soldiers and good doctors on the battlefield of Troy, and they healed people with the kind of medical treatment I mentioned above. ——Do you know this?Menelaus was wounded by an arrow shot by Pandarus, and they sucked out the blood and applied some soothing herbs. They did not give him a prescribed diet, as they did with Eurypylus, thinking that for those who were in good health before the injury and lived a simple life, such a herbal medicine would suffice after the injury, although occasionally drinking A kind of milk wine.But for those congenitally weak and intemperate people, they think that such people are useless to themselves and others, and their medical skills are not for these people.Though such a man is richer than Midas, they do not heal him. — Do you remember these stories? ① There are discrepancies in Plato's citations. IV218 says that it was Machaon who healed Menelaus.Therefore, "he" should be used instead of "they" in both places. ② Phrygian king in Greek mythology.He was greedy for wealth, and once prayed to the gods to give him the magic of turning things into gold. G: Let me put it this way, these children of Asklebis are amazing! SOCRATES: They are.But what the tragedies and the poet Pindar say differs from our principles.They say that Asklebis was the son of the god Apollo, who was struck by lightning for taking a bribe to heal a dying rich man.On the principles we have stated before, we do not believe the tragedies and Pindar.We think that if he is the Son of God, he must not be greedy, but if he is greedy, he is not the Son of God. G: So far, you couldn't be more right.But Socrates, I have a question, how do you answer it?Do we need good doctors in the city-state? Is it true that the best doctor should be the one who has treated the greatest number of patients (both gifted and disabled)?Likewise, should the best judges be those who have dealt with all kinds of people? SOCRATES: Surely we want good doctors and good judges.But you know what I mean by "good"? G: I don't know unless you tell me. Su: OK, let me try it.I said you mixed two different things into one question. G: What do you mean? Su: If a doctor has studied medicine since he was a child, has contact with all kinds of patients, and has personal experience of various diseases (if their own physique is not very good), then such a doctor may indeed become a very capable doctor. doctor.Because I think they are not using the body to heal the body. If the body is treating the body, we should not let their bodies get sick or continue to get sick.They use the mind to heal the body. If the mind is bad or has become bad, it is impossible for them to heal the disease well. G: You're right. SOCRATES: As for the judge, my friend, it is the heart that rules the heart.The mind must not be mixed with bad minds since childhood, let alone commit crimes to gain first-hand experience so that when judging a case, one can quickly speculate on the process of the crime, just like a doctor diagnosing a patient.On the contrary, if the minds of those who are going to be judges are really beautiful and fair, and their judgments are correct, then their minds should have nothing to do with bad people and bad things since they are young, and they should have nothing to do with them.But in this way, good people appear more naive and gullible when they are young, because they don't have the archetype in them that bad people have. G: They do have this experience. SOCRATES: Because of this, a good judge must not be a young man, but an old man.They didn't know what injustice was all about until they got older and learned many years later.They know injustice, not as something in their own minds, but, by long observation, have learned to know it as something else in other minds, by knowledge alone, and not by My experience realizes clearly how great an evil an injustice can be. G: Such a judge would be considered a most noble judge. Sue: And be a good judge.The gist of your question lies in the word "good", because a person with a good heart is "good".And the cunning, suspicious man, who has done many evil things himself, and who thinks he has been clever enough to hide from others, looks at the archetypes in his own mind in his dealings with his own kind. , he looks smart and capable, but when he gets along with good people or people of the older generation, he looks very stupid, because he doubts what he shouldn't doubt.When he meets a good person, he doesn't know him, because he doesn't have a good prototype in his heart.However, since he met so many more bad people than good ones, he seemed to himself and others to be a wise man rather than a fool. G: Exactly. SOCRATES: Therefore, the ideal judge who is good and discerning is by no means the latter, but the former.For evil can never understand virtue and evil itself, but innate virtue can eventually understand evil and virtue itself through education.So it seems to me that it is not the bad but the good that make a discerning judge. G: I agree. SOCRATES: Then, will you enact in the city-state what we have said about the arts of medicine and justice?Both these laws are kind to the bodies and minds of those citizens who are endowed with soundness; and those who are not healthy, the city-state allows them to die; Put to death. G: Doing so has proven to be the best thing both for the person dealt with and for the city-state. Su: In this way, young people have accepted the kind of simple music and art education we mentioned, and developed a good habit of temperance. Obviously, they can supervise themselves and do not need to go to court. Greg: Yes. SOCRATES: This musically-educated youth, with physical exercise (if he chooses), will, by the same painstaking process, become needless of any medical skill at all, except as a last resort. G: I think so too. Su: Besides, in the process of training his body without fear of hardships, his main purpose is to exercise the passionate part of his mind, not just to increase his physical strength. He is different from ordinary athletes. They are strong and thick. G: You're absolutely right. SOCRATES: So the legislators who base our education on music and sports do not, as some imagine, aim at caring for the mind with music and the body with sports.Glaucon, may I say so? G: Why not? S: They stipulated that music and physical education should be taught mainly for the soul. G: How come? Su: Have you ever noticed the impact on the soul of a life devoted to sports while ignoring music and art education?Conversely, what about focusing on music literature and ignoring the influence of sports? G: What do you mean? SOCRATES: I mean savagery and cruelty on the one hand, and weakness and meekness on the other. G: Ah, that's right.I have noticed that those who specialize in physical exercise tend to become too rough, and those who specialize in music and art tend to become too weak. SOCRATES: The passionate part of nature does produce savagery; if properly trained it can be courageous, if carried too far it can become harsh. G: I think so too. Su: Besides, is gentleness a quality of the intellectual part of human nature?Is this a quality which, when overdeveloped, becomes too feeble, and which, if properly cultivated, becomes gentle and orderly?Is it this way? G: Exactly. Su: But we say that our guardians need both qualities. G: They should. SOCRATES: Are these two qualities then to be in harmony with each other? G: Of course. SOCRATES: A person who has this kind of quality harmoniously exists, his heart is both gentle and brave. G: Indeed. SOCRATES: Man without this harmony is cowardly and brutish. G: Exactly. Su: Good; suppose a person indulges in music, let all kinds of tunes sing, sweet, soft, crying (like those we just talked about), like a muddy empowerment, using the ear as a funnel, pouring into the depths of the soul At the same time, if he indulges in the melody and song all the time, the passionate part (if there is any) at first, like iron, can be made into a useful instrument by changing from rough and hard to soft.If he continues like this, like a maniac, and cannot stop, he will start to melt, liquefy, and disintegrate.As a result, the passion evaporates, leaving him withered and a "weak fighter." ① ① XVII 588. Grid: Exactly. SOCRATES: If (1) he is not a man of strong nature from the beginning, the evil result of this malaise will appear very soon.If ① is originally a strong person, after being stimulated, his emotions will become unstable, easy to get angry, and easy to calm down.The result is a moody and eccentric person who loves to quarrel with others and lose his temper. ① All include a major premise: that is, only engage in music and art all the time, and do not engage in physical exercise. G: Exactly. Su: Besides, if a person devotes all his energy to physical exercise, has a big appetite, and never studies literature, art and philosophy, at first he will become physically strong, his heart will be full of confidence, and his whole person will become braver than before.Do you see him like this? G: He really does. Su: However, what would happen if he had no intention other than gymnastics training and was afraid of meeting the gods of literature and art?He has never tasted the taste of scientific research, and even knows nothing about dialectical reasoning. Wouldn't the fire of love and wisdom that may exist in the depths of his heart become dim and weak?Because the mind has not been enlightened and cultivated, and the sensory receptivity has not been honed, he will become deaf and blind.isn't it? G: Indeed. Su: As a result, I think this kind of person will become a person who hates theory and knows no art. He does not use arguments to convince others, but uses violence and brutality to achieve all his goals like a wild beast.Live a discordant and impolite life in brutish ignorance. G: Exactly. 苏：为这两者，似乎有两种技术——音乐和体育（我要说这是某一位神赐给我们人类的）——服务于人的两个部分——爱智部分和激情部分。这不是为了心灵和身体（虽然顺便附带也为了心灵和身体），而是为了使爱智和激情这两部分张弛得宜配合适当，达到和谐。 格：看来如此。 苏：因此，那种能把音乐和体育配合得最好，能最为比例适当地把两者应用到心灵上的人，我们称他们为最完美最和谐的音乐家应该是最适当的，远比称一般仅知和弦弹琴的人为音乐家更适当。 格：讲得有理，苏格拉底。 苏：那么，格劳孔，在这方面，是不是我们也需要一个常设的监护人呢，如果城邦的宪法要加以监护的话？ 格：当然非常需要。 苏：关于教育和培养公民的原则纲要就是这些。一一细述他们的跳舞、打猎、跑狗、竞技、赛马，试问有什么必要呢？ 细节必须符合纲要，大纲定了，细节就不难发现，这是一清二楚的事情。 格：也许就不困难了。 苏：那么好，下面我们要确定什么呢？是不是要决定，公民里面哪些人是统治者，哪些人是被统治者呢？ 格：显然是的。 苏：统治者必须是年纪大一点的，被统治者必须是年纪小一点的。这是显然的吗？ 格：是显然的。 苏：统治者必须是他们中间最好的人。这也是明显的吗？ 格：也是明显的。 苏：最好的农民是最善于种田的人，是不是？ 格：是的。 苏：那么，现在既然要选择的是护卫者中最好的，我们不是要选择最善于护卫国家的人吗？ 格：是的。 苏：那么，他们除了首先应当是有护卫国家的智慧和能力的人而外，难道不还应当是一些真正关心国家利益的人吗？ 格：当然应当是。 苏：一个人总最关心他所爱的东西。 格：必然如此。 苏：又，一个人总是最爱那些他认为和自己有一致利益，和自己得失祸福与共的东西的。 格：确是这样。 苏：那么，我们必须从所有护卫者里选择那些在我们观察中显得最愿毕生鞠躬尽瘁，为国家利益效劳，而绝不愿做任何不利于国家的事情的人。 格：选择这些人是最妥当的了。 苏：其次，我觉得，我们还得随时考察他们，看他们是否能终身保持这种护卫国家的信念，是否既非魔术又非武力所能于不知不觉之间使他们放弃为国尽力的信念①的？ ①δK′ξα“决定”、“意见”。这里译“信念”，比较明达些。 格：你所说的“放弃”是指的什么？ 苏：让我来告诉你。我觉得，一个意见①之离开心灵，或为自愿的，或为不自愿的。一个错误意见离开学好了的人是自愿的离开，一切正确意见的离开是不自愿的离开。 ①“意见”，和前注“信念”是一个词，在希腊文同为δK′ξα。 格：我理解自愿的那个，但是我希望听你讲讲不自愿的那个。 苏：啊，可以。人们总是不愿意失掉好的东西，而愿意丢掉坏的东西，你同意我这个想法吗？难道在真理上的受骗不是坏事，得到真理不是好事吗？你难道不认为取得反映真实的意见是得到真理吗？ 格：你说得很对。我也认为，人们的正确意见总是不愿被剥夺的。 苏：不自愿的放弃总是发生在人们被巧取豪夺——或被欺骗诱惑或被强力压迫的情况下。 格：此刻你讲的巧取豪夺的两种情况是什么意思我都不懂。 苏：我一定是象悲剧角色在讲话，有点晦涩了。所谓“被欺骗诱惑”，我的意思是指人们经过辩论，被人说服了，或者经过一段时间忘掉了，于不知不觉间放弃了原来的意见。现在你也许懂了吧？ 格：是的。 苏：所谓“被强力压迫”，我的意思是指有些困苦或忧患逼得人们改变了原有的意见。 格：我也懂了。我想你所说的是对的。 苏：至于“被欺骗诱惑者”我想你会同意我是指那些人： 他们受享乐引诱，或者怕字当头，有所畏惧，改变了意见。 格：是的，凡是带欺骗性的东西，总是起一种魔术般的迷惑作用。 苏：言归正传，我们必须寻找坚持原则孜孜不倦为他们所认为的国家利益服务的那些护卫者。我们必须从他们幼年时起，就考察他们，要他们做工作，在工作中考察他们。其中有的人可能会忘掉那个原则，受了欺骗。我们必须选择那些不忘原则的，不易受骗的人做护卫者，而舍弃其余的人。Do you agree? 格：同意。 苏：再者，劳筋骨、苦心志，见贤思齐，我们也要在这些方面注意考察他们。 格：极是。 苏：好，让我们再进行第三种反欺骗诱惑的考察，看他们是否经得起。你知道人们把小马带到嘈杂喧哗的地方去，看它们怕不怕；同样，我们也要把年轻人放到贫穷忧患中去，然后再把他们放到锦衣玉食的环境中去，同时，比人们用烈火炼金制造金器还要细心得多地去考察他们，看他们受不受外界的引诱，是不是能泰然无动于衷，守身如玉，做一个自己的好的护卫者，是不是能护卫自己已受的文化修养，维持那些心灵状态在他身上的谐和与真正的节奏（这样的人对国家对自己是最有用的）。人们从童年、青年以至成年经过考验，无懈可击，我们必须把这种人定为国家的统治者和护卫者。当他生的时候应该给予荣誉，死了以后给他举行公葬和其他的纪念活动。那些不合格的人应该予以排斥。格劳孔啊！我想这就是我们选择和任命统治者和护卫者的总办法。当然这仅仅是个大纲，并不是什么细节都列出来了。 格：我同意，大体上我也觉得事情应该这样做。 苏：我们的确可以在最完全的涵义上称这些人为护卫者。 他们对外警惕着敌人，内部注意朋友，以致朋友不愿，敌人不敢危害城邦。至于刚才我们称之为护卫者的那些人中的年轻人，则我们称之为辅助者或助手，他们是执行统治者法令的。Is that so? 格：我也认为是这样。 苏：不久前①，我们刚谈到过偶然使用假话的问题，现在我们或许可以用什么方法说一个那样的高贵的假话，使统治者自己相信（如果可能的话），或者至少使城邦里其他的人相信（如果不能使统治者相信的话）。 ①389B以下。 格：什么假话？ 苏：并没什么新奇的。这是一个老早以前在世界上许多地方流传过的腓尼基人的传说。它是诗人告诉我们，而我们也信以为真的一个故事。但是这样的故事在我们今天已听不到，也不大可能再听到，它也没有任何说服力可以使人相信的了。 格：你似乎吞吞吐吐很不愿意直说出来。 苏：等我讲了你就会懂得我为什么不肯直说了。 格：快讲吧，不要怕。 苏：那么好，我就来讲吧。不过，我还是没有把握我是否能有勇气，是否能找到什么语言来表达我的意思，首先说服统治者们自己和军队，其次说服城邦的其他人：我们给他们教育和培养，其实他们一切如在梦中。实际上他们是在地球深处被孕育被陶铸成的，他们的武器和装备也是在那里制造的； 地球是他们的母亲，把他们抚养大了，送他们到世界上来。他们一定要把他们出生的土地看作母亲看作保姆，念念不忘，卫国保乡，御侮抗敌，团结一致，有如亲生兄弟一家人似的。 格：现在我明白你刚才为什么欲言又止，不肯把这个荒唐故事直说出来的了。 苏：我这样做自有我的理由；不去管它，且听下文。我们在故事里将要告诉他们：他们虽然一土所生，彼此都是兄弟，但是老天铸造他们的时候，在有些人的身上加入了黄金，这些人因而是最可宝贵的，是统治者。在辅助者（军人）的身上加入了白银。在农民以及其他技工身上加入了铁和铜。但是又由于同属一类，虽则父子天赋相承，有时不免金父生银子，银父生金子，错综变化，不一而足。所以上天给统治者的命令最重要的就是要他们做后代的好护卫者，要他们极端注意在后代灵魂深处所混合的究竟是哪一种金属。如果他们的孩子心灵里混入了一些废铜烂铁，他们决不能稍存姑息，应当把他们放到恰如其分的位置上去，安置于农民工人之间；如果农民工人的后辈中间发现其天赋中有金有银者，他们就要重视他，把他提升到护卫者或辅助者中间去。须知，神谕曾经说过“铜铁当道，国破家亡”，你看你有没有办法使他们相信这个荒唐的故事？ 格：不，这些人是永远不会相信这个故事的。不过我看他们的下一代会相信的，后代的后代子子孙孙迟早总会相信的。 苏：我想我是理解你的意思的。就是说，这样影响还是好的，可以使他们倾向于爱护他们的国家和他们相互爱护。我想就这样口头相传让它流传下去吧！ 现在让我们武装这些大地的子孙们，指导他们在统治者的导引下迈步前进。让他们去看看城邦里最适宜于扎营的地方，从那里他们可以对内镇压不法之徒，对外抗虎狼般的入侵之敌。扎下营盘祭过神祇之后，他们必须做窝。你同意我这个说法吗？ 格：我同意。 苏：这些窝要能冬天暖和夏天宽敞吗？ 格：当然是的。因为我想你是指他们的住处。 苏：是的，我是指兵士的营房，不是指商人的住房。 格：这两者分别在哪里？ 苏：让我来告诉你。对牧羊人来说，人世上最可怕最可耻的事情实在莫过于把那些帮助他们管羊群的猎犬饲养成这个样子：它们或因放纵或因饥饿或因别的坏脾气，反而去打击和伤害所保管的羊群，它们倒象是豺狼而不象是猎犬了。 格：确是可怕。 苏：那么我们要不要注意用我们所能的一切方法防止我们的助手用任何这样的态度来对付人民，并且由于自己比较强，因而使自己由一个温和的朋友变成了一个野蛮的主子呢？ 格：我们一定要这样。 苏：他们要是受过真正好的教育，他们在这方面不就有了主要的保证了吗？ 格：他们已经受过好教育了呀！ 苏：我们还不能肯定这样说，亲爱的格劳孔，不过我们可以肯定正在说的那句话，他们一定要有正确的教育（不管它是什么），使他们不仅主要能够对他们自己温文和蔼，而且对他们所治理的人们也温文和蔼。 格：这话很对。 苏：那么，除了好的教育之外，任何明白事理的人都要说，我们必须给他们住处给他们别的东西，使他们得以安心去做优秀的保卫者，而不要迫使他们在老百姓中间为非作歹。 格：这话说得极是。 苏：好，请考虑一下，如果要他们做优秀的护卫者，象我们所希望的那样，下述这种生活方式，这种住处能行吗？第一，除了绝对的必需品以外，他们任何人不得有任何私产。第二，任何人不应该有不是大家所公有的房屋或仓库。至于他们的食粮则由其他公民供应，作为能够打仗既智且勇的护卫者职务的报酬，按照需要，每年定量分给，既不让多余，亦不使短缺。他们必须同住同吃，象士兵在战场上一样。至于金银我们一定要告诉他们，他们已经从神明处得到了金银，藏于心灵深处，他们更不需要人世间的金银了。他们不应该让它同世俗的金银混杂在一起而受到沾污；因为世俗的金银是罪恶之源，心灵深处的金银是纯洁无瑕的至宝。国民之中只有这些护卫者不敢与金和银发生任何关系，甚至不敢接触它们，不敢和它们同居一室，他们不敢在身上挂一点金银的装饰品或者用金杯银杯喝一点儿酒；他们就这样来拯救他们自己，拯救他们的国家。他们要是在任何时候获得一些土地、房屋或金钱，他们就要去搞农业、做买卖，就不再能搞政治做护卫者了。他们就从人民的盟友蜕变为人民的敌人和暴君了；他们恨人民，人民恨他们；他们就会算计人民，人民就要谋图打倒他们；他们终身在恐惧之中，他们就会惧怕人民超过惧怕国外的敌人。结果就会是，他们和国家一起走上灭亡之路，同归于尽。 苏：根据以上所有的理由，让我们就怎样供给护卫者以住处及其它的一切达成一致意见，并且制定为法律吧。我们要不要这样？ 格：完全要。