Chapter 4 Volume 3-1

Su: Regarding the view of God, it is roughly as mentioned above.In order for our guardians to respect the gods, be filial to their parents, and value the friendship between friends, some stories should be told to them from an early age, and some stories should not be told to them. A: I think so too, and I think we are right. SOCRATES: Then, what's next?If we want them to be brave, we can't stop there.Shall we educate them in the correct way so that they will not be afraid of death? Do you think a person who is afraid of death can be brave? A: Of course not. SOCRATES: If a person believes that hell really exists and is very terrible, can he not be afraid of death, and would he rather die than surrender in war than be a slave?

A: No. Su: It seems that we should supervise the people who write these stories, and ask them to praise life in hell, and not to talk about it and make it useless.For what they say is neither true nor beneficial to future soldiers. A: They should be supervised. SOCRATES: Let us begin, then, with the epic, and delete the following stanzas: I'd rather live in the world as a slave Following a master who is not rich, I don't want to be under the underworld Command the ghost. ① Second, he worries about mortals and gods alike The scene of Hades is exposed: Dark, miserable, even the immortal god

I was shocked to see it. ② Secondly, although there are phantoms of wandering souls under the nine springs, However, there is no knowledge. ③ Secondly, he alone has wisdom and knowledge, while others are just phantom shadows that come and go erratically. ④ ①XX64.The gods were divided into two factions, one on the side of the Greeks and one on the side of the Trojans.God was invited to join the battle in person, so that the mountains shook and the earthquake frightened Hades, the king of the underworld. He was worried that the ground would crack, and people and God saw the horror of the underworld.

② Achilles dreamed of the ghost of his friend Patroclus, and wanted to hug him.But the ghostly shadow avoided.Achilles sighed.See XXIII103. ③The goddess Kergi asked Odysseus to go to the underworld to ask the ghost of the prophet Tiresia about his future.According to her, although the prophet was dead, Poseidon, queen of the underworld, kept him in the wisdom of the prophet.See "Odyssey" X495. ④The ancient Greeks believed that when a person dies, he no longer knows the affairs of the world, not even his relatives.Only when the blood of the sacrifice is eaten by the sacrifice can the living person be known.

Secondly, see the poem "Odyssey" Ⅺ489-491.When Odysseus saw Achilles' ghost in the underworld, he said some words of comfort to him, praising him for being a hero after death.Achilles expressed the idea that it is better to die than to live. The spirit left the body, he flew to the palace of Hades, Crying bitterly about the misfortune of fate all the way, putting youth and vigour Let's flash together. ① Secondly, the soul flies away like a cloud of smoke. ② Secondly, like a group of bats in a thousand caves in a dangerous rock, One stumbled and landed, and the rest screamed:

Huangquan is full of ghosts, chirping and flying. ③ ① Regarding the death of Patroclus, see XVI856.Regarding the death of Hector, see the same book XXII36── ② See XXIII100 for poems.Achilles saw the ghost of Patroclus in his dream, and disappeared like a puff of smoke. ③For the poem, see "Odyssey" XXIV6.All the courtiers were killed by Odysseus.Here is a description of the scene when their ghosts go to the underworld under the guidance of Hermes, the envoy of God. We beg Homer not to be offended if we delete these lines.We do not deny that these are good poems that people like to hear.But the better the poetry, the less we trust people to listen to it. These children and adults should be free and should be afraid of slavery, not death.

A: I absolutely agree. SOCRATES: Besides, we must weed out from the vocabulary those dreadful, miserable names, such as "miserable Cocutos," "hateful Styx," as well as "underworld," "hell," "dead men." ", "corpse" and other nouns.They are horrifying to hear.Perhaps these terms have their place, but at present we are concerned with the education of the Guardians, and we fear that this fear will weaken our Guardians and make them less strong and courageous than we need them to be. A: We should be so worried. SOCRATES: So we should abolish these nouns?

A: Yes. SOCRATES: Should we use the exact opposite nouns in stories and poems? A: This is obvious. SOCRATES: Shall we cut out the wailing of the heroes? A: Same as above, of course. Su: Think about it carefully. Is it right to delete these?Our principle is: A good man never thinks death is a terrible thing to his friend, another good man. A: This is our principle. SOCRATES: Then he won't mourn his friend's death as if something terrible had happened to him. A: He won't. SOCRATES: We can also say that this kind of person is the most happy and contented.It is their characteristic that they are least demanding of others.

A: Really. SOCRATES: So the loss of a son, or a brother, or money, or whatever, does not seem to him at all terrible. A: Yes, not scary at all. SOCRATES: Therefore, he will never be sad and haggard, and no matter what misfortune befalls him, he will be calm. A: Sure. SOCRATES: Then we should delete the elegy of famous authors, attribute them to women (not counting the good ones), and to mediocre men, so that we are training guardians, and therefore look down on this kind of people instead of imitating them. A: It should be so. SOCRATES: We beg Homer and other poets not to describe Achilles, son of the goddess, as:

Lying on the bed, sometimes lying on the side, sometimes facing the sky, For a while, he lay down on the ground. ① Then simply get up Distraught wandering on the shore of the wild sea,② Neither describe him picking up the black earth with both hands, and throwing it on his head; nor describe him crying and weeping, as Homer describes; nor describe Priam Relatives of the gods, crawling in dung, Calling people by their names one by one, I beseech you all. ④ We especially beseech the poets not to make the gods howl, My heart is sad to give birth to this Yinger, Yinger is often troubled while she is alive. ⑤

①②See XXIV10-12.Describe the scene when Achilles missed his deceased friend Patroclus. ③ See XVIII 23.The scene when Achilles first heard the news that Petroclus had died in battle. ④The old Trojan king saw his son Hector's body humiliated after his death, and was distraught. He asked everyone to let him go out of the city to redeem Hector's body.See XXII414. ⑤ⅩⅧ54.The words of Achilles' mother, the goddess Tethys. This is true for the gods, and the greatest god among the gods should not be described in such a stateless and solemn manner that he sighs: Alas, my friend is being chased around the city. It saddens me to witness this scene. ① also said: Sad!dearest sarpedon died at the hands of Patroclus, son of Menotiad middle. ② ①XXII168.What Zeus said about Hector. ②See XVI433. O my friend Ademanthus!If our young man listens to these stories about the gods seriously and does not find them ashamed or ridiculous, then when it comes to himself, who is only a mortal, he will not feel ashamed or ridiculous about such similar words and deeds; Also, you won't encounter sadness, self-restraint, but complaining and moaning for a little thing. A: You are quite right. Sue: They shouldn't.The debate we just had has proved that. We have to believe this conclusion, unless someone else can give us another better proof. A: They really shouldn't be like this. Sue: Besides, they shouldn't like to laugh all the time.Generally speaking, a man can easily become very excited when he laughs wildly. A: I agree with your idea. SOCRATES: Well, let's not believe it if someone describes a man of value who can't help but laugh out loud.As for the gods, let alone. A: Needless to say. SOCRATES: Then we should never accept from Homer the following about the gods: Hephaestus holds the flagon in his hand, Running busily round the banquet hall; Seeing this scene, the God of Ultimate Bliss, Burst bursts of laughter. ① ① See I, 599.The gods watched Hephaestus running back and forth with his lame legs, pouring wine for the gods, which was ridiculous.In fact, it was a joke that he was nosy.It was originally the task of Hebe, the goddess of youth, to pour wine for the gods on Mount Olympus. In your words, we "should not accept" it. A: If you are happy to count this statement as my statement, so be it.We shouldn't accept it anyway. SOCRATES: We must also place truth above everything else.If what we have just said is true: falsity is of no use to the gods, but it is useful to mortals as a medicine.Obviously, then, we should leave this drug to the doctors, and the general public should not touch it. A: That's very clear. SOCRATES: The ruler of the state, in the interest of the state, has reason to use it against the enemy, and even against the citizens.The rest of the people are not allowed to have any relationship with it.If the average person lies to the ruler, we think it is as sinful as a patient lying to the doctor, as a sailor not telling the coach the true state of his body, as a sailor lying to the helmsman about the condition of the ship and himself or other sailors, even The guilt is greater. A: Exactly. SOCRATES: Then, in a city-state the ruler meets anyone, Whether a seer, a doctor, or a carpenter,① Or any craftsman who tells a lie, he must be punished.Because his behavior is like a sailor's overturning and destroying a ship, which is enough to overturn and destroy a city-state. A: He will overthrow and destroy a city-state, if his nonsense is carried out. Sue: Do our young people need to have the virtue of self-restraint? A: Of course. Su: For ordinary people, the most important self-restraint is to obey the ruler; For rulers, the most important self-restraint is to control the desire for physical pleasure such as eating and drinking. A: I agree. SOCRATES: I think what Diometh says in Homer is very good; Friends, please sit down and listen to me. ②There is also the following: The Achaeans are afraid of their magistrates, Move forward quietly. ③ ① "Odyssey" XVII 383. ②Ⅳ412.What Diomet said to Sternelos.Agamemnon blamed Diomete and Sternelos for their ineffectiveness in combat, and Diomete humbly accepted the marshal's criticism.When Stenelos contradicted Agamemnon, Diomete stopped him from doing so, asking him to understand and respect the marshal's criticism. ③ Ⅲ 8 and Ⅳ 43! " And other similar paragraphs are also good. A: Well said. Sue: So, how about this line of work? Dog-eyed mouse gall, a drunkard. ① ① I 225.Achilles insulted Agamemnon for not having the courage to fight on the front line himself.There are other insults to him in the same place. What do you think of the next few lines?Is there any other behavior that can be described as vulgar and offensive in poetry and prose? A: Not good. Su: These works are not suitable for young people to hear, so that they lose self-restraint.As a kind of entertainment, I think it is barely enough.what is your opinion? A: I agree. SOCRATES: Besides, Homer asked one of the wisest heroes to say something, praising the greatest blessing in life is, There is a waiter holding a jug to drink wine, filling the wine glass to the brim, Wheat cakes and pieces of meat were piled high on the sumptuous banquet. ① What can young people do for self-denial when they hear these words?Also listened to: The hardest thing for living people is starvation and death! ② Or heard about Zeus: when the other gods had fallen asleep, he was still tossing and turning because of his intense sexual desire, and he caught a glimpse of Hera's rich clothes and lingering love, and he couldn't wait to have sex in the open air.Zeus also said to his wife that this meeting is better than the first tryst, behind their parents. ③ ① "Odyssey" IX8.The opening words of Odysseus to King Aginor. ② "Odyssey" Ⅻ342.What Uryloko, Odysseus' partner, said when the food stock was exhausted. ③XIV 294-341.See the same book XIV 28 for the poem! " So he immediately forgot all his plans. ③And hearing about how Hephaestus chained the god of war Ares and the god of love, Aphrodite, ①to the self-restraint of young people? ① "Odyssey" VIII 266. A: In my opinion, there is absolutely no benefit. Su: As for the words and deeds of some famous people who are insulted and can restrain themselves, these are worth letting young people see and listen to, for example: He beat his chest and beat himself to blame: "My heart, what's the matter with you? You have endured worse things." ① ① Ibid. XX17.What Odysseus said to himself when he returned to his own home and saw the chaos. A: Of course. S: Besides, we can't let them take bribes and get rich. A: Absolutely not. SOCRATES: Nor can I read to them: Money can connect gods, money can connect kings. ① ① See the δωIρα entry in the dictionary Suidas in the tenth century.It tells us that some people attribute this line to Hesiod. We should not praise Achilles' mentor, Phoenix, who instigated Achilles to take money from the Achaeans and come out to defend them, otherwise he would never let go of his anger. ①We should not agree with or believe this statement, saying that Achilles was so greedy for money that he accepted gifts from Agamemnon; . ③ ① Phoenix's speech to Achilles.See IX 515 below.The main purpose of Phoenix's speech was still to impress Achilles' heart and beg him to fight.There is no meaning of "otherwise I will never let go of my anger". ② XXIX 278.Achilles is not a particularly greedy person in Homer's description.He reconciled with Agamemnon and agreed to fight mainly to avenge his friend Patroclus. ③ See XXIV 502, 555, 594.It refers to the old Trojan King Priam who gave Achilles many gifts to redeem the body of his beloved son Hector. A: No, it's not right to praise these things. SOCRATES: But for Homer's sake, I would not say that such things were done by Achilles. If someone else says it, I don't want to believe it.Otherwise it is impious.Nor do I want to believe what Achilles said to the god Apollo: Agile Archer, God of Hell, I can't help you! You don't have an ax in your hand, if you have an ax, you will be held accountable! ①Also, how he was violent and rude to the river god, and prepared to quarrel; ③ We cannot believe all these nonsense.Nor can we believe that he dragged Hector's body round the grave of Petroclus, and put the captive on his friend's funeral pyre.We cannot convince the young that Achilles, son of the goddess and Peles (who was known for his self-denial and grandson of the chief god Zeus, raised by Heron, the wisest), had such a heroic character that In such confusion, there are actually two problems in his heart: despicable greed and contempt for God and man. ① XXII 15. ② Achilles vs. Scamander River God.See XXI130. ③ Achilles' father once made a wish to the god of the Sperkes River: If Achilles can return to his hometown from Troy safely, he will make Achilles' curly hair and fifty sheep Sacrifice was offered to the river god.But now Achilles knew that he was destined to die in Troy and could not return.So angrily, he cut off his long hair and dedicated it to his deceased friend.See XXIII15! " A: You are quite right. SOCRATES: Very well, let us never believe this nonsense, and let no one tell the horror of theseus, son of Poseidon, and Perisus, son of Zeus, the god of the sea, who took women captive, nor Let people slander heroes or the sons of gods at will, and attribute to them those acts of lawlessness and audacity.Let us also compel the poets to deny that these things were done by the children of God, or that the men who did them were descended from the gods.They shouldn't have said either.They should not lead young people to think that gods produce evil and that heroes are no better than ordinary people.For, as we have said in the previous discussion, such words are neither pious nor true.I believe we have pointed out that it is by no means impossible for the gods to be the source of evil. ① According to legend, Theseus once robbed Helen with the assistance of Perissus, and tried to lure Poseidon, Queen of the Underworld, with Perissus.The story of Theseus has been the subject of several epics and the lost tragedies of Sophocles and Euripides. A: Of course that is impossible. S: Besides, these absurd words and deeds are harmful to the listeners.Because everyone will think that his own evil is nothing, if he believes that the children and grandchildren of these evil deeds have done it in the past, and are still doing it now—— Kinship of the gods, offspring of Zeus, The majestic altar, on the top of Mount Ida, Inherited in one continuous line, Erzhi is prosperous. ① For these reasons we must prohibit the circulation of these stories.Otherwise, thoughts of sin and evil will be aroused in the minds of the youth. ①The poem comes from the lost tragedy of Aeschylus "Niope". A: We must ban it. SOCRATES: So, what should be said and what should not be said—what else do we have to stipulate on this question?We have come up with what is true about gods, spirits, heroes, and the underworld. A: We have proposed. Su: What remains to be stipulated is probably the concept of human beings, right? A: Obviously yes. SOCRATES: My friend, we are not yet in a position to formulate rules on this question! A: Why? SOCRATES: Because I am afraid that the poet and the storyteller, at the most important point, are wrong about man.They cite many people to show that the unrighteous are happy and the upright are miserable;We should not let them speak these words, but we should ask them to sing and say the exact opposite.Do you agree with me? A: Of course I agree. SOCRATES: If you agree with what I have said, I can say that you have actually admitted the principle we are discussing looking for. A: You are right. SOCRATES: Well, we must first find out what justice is, and what benefits does justice have for the bearer of justice, regardless of whether others think he is just or not.When this is clear, we can agree on what to say about people, that is, which stories should be told and how. A: Exactly. Su: This is the end of the discussion on the content of the story. Next we will discuss the form or style of the story.This allows us to examine both content and form—that is, what is said and how it is said—in its entirety. A: I don't understand what you mean. Su: Ah, I will make you understand.Maybe it's easier to see what I mean when you look at it this way: the storyteller or the poet is talking about the past, the present, and the future. A: Well, of course. SOCRATES: Do they tell stories by simple narrative, by imitation, or both? A: I really want to know more about this point. Sue: Oh!What a ridiculous and bad teacher I am!I have to be like those who can't speak, I can't explain everything at once, I can only explain bit by bit.In the opening lines the poet tells of Heryses begging Agamemnon to release his daughter, and Agamemnon is furious.When Heryses couldn't get his daughter, he cursed the Greeks.Excuse me, do you know this poem? A: I know. SOCRATES: Well, you must know the following lines: He prayed to all the Achaeans, Plead before its two heads, That pair of brothers and sisters, The two sons of Atreus. ① Here the poet himself speaks, without making us feel that someone else is speaking.In the latter passage, it seems that the poet has become Heryses, and it is not the poet Homer who is speaking, but the old priest.The rest of the story of Troy takes place in Ithaca, and the whole of the Odyssey, almost in this way is narrated by the poet. ② ① Poetry see I, 15.Achaeans are Greeks.The two sons of Atreus refer to Agamemnon and his brother Menelaus. ②The poet not only narrates in his own tone, but also speaks in the tone of characters in some places.The latter method is another way for poets to tell stories, and it is also a kind of "narration".If it is given another name, it is "imitation". A: That's right. Su: All Daobai and the narratives between Daobai and Daobai are narratives. right? A: Of course. SOCRATES: But when he speaks, he looks like a completely different person. Can we say that he is completely assimilated to the character in the story when he speaks? A: Yes. SOCRATES: Then to make his own voice and appearance like another person is to imitate the person he plays. A: Of course. Su: In this case, it seems that he and other poets narrate through imitation. A: Exactly. SOCRATES: But if the poet is everywhere and never hides himself, then imitation is abandoned and his poems become pure narratives.But to keep you from saying "I don't understand," I'm going to tell you how it can be done.For example Homer says: The priest came, with a ransom in his hand, to bring his daughter back, and prayed to the Greeks, especially to the two kings—and so on, not in the tone of Heryses, but in the tone of the poet himself.In saying this he is not imitating but purely narrating.The narrative is roughly like this: (I don't use rhyme, because I am not a poet) The priest has come, and I wish the gods, let the Greeks capture the city of Troy and return safely.He spoke thus, and the Greeks, in awe of their gods, agreed to his request.But Agamemnon was furious and told the priest to leave and not to come again, otherwise his priest's scepter and divine crown would be useless to him.Agamemnon will die in Argos with the priest's daughter.He commanded the priest that he must leave if he wished to return safely, and that he should not be irritated.So the old priest left in fear and silence.After leaving the tent, the old priest called out many names of the god Apollo, asking God to recall how he treated the gods well in the past, how he built temples to worship them, and how rich the rituals were.The gods should worship virtue and repay meritorious deeds, and the Greeks should be punished to make up for the crimes committed by the arrows of the gods.So, my friend, without imitation, the result is pure narrative. A: I see. SOCRATES: Or you can conceive of the exact opposite style, in which all the parts written by the poet are removed between the dialogues, leaving only the dialogues. A: I understand that too.This is the style adopted by tragedy. Sue: You guessed exactly what I mean.I couldn't do it before, but now I think I can tell you clearly.There are two types of poetry and stories: one is completely imitative, which is what you call tragedy and drama;The third is a combination of both, and is found in the epic and other forms of poetry, if you know what I mean. A: Ah, yes, I see what you mean now. S: Well, recall what was said before.As we said earlier, after discussing what to say, we should consider how to say it. A: Yes, I remember. SOCRATES: What I mean is: we have to decide, should the poet narrate through imitation?Or are some parts imitated and some not?What parts does the so-called some parts refer to through imitation?Or don't let them use a little parody at all? A: I guess your question is whether to introduce tragedy and comedy into the city-state. Sue: Maybe.Perhaps a little more than this question is about.To be honest, I don't know myself.In short, no matter where the wind of debate blows us, we will go with it. A: You are quite right. Su: Ademanthus, at this point, we must pay attention to whether our guardian should be an imitator?Inferring from what has been said before, everyone can only do one kind of industry and not many kinds of industries, right?If he does everything, he can't do anything well, and he can't do anything. A: There is no doubt that it will be so. SOCRATES: Isn't the same reasoning also applicable to imitation problems?Can one imitate many things as well as one? A: Of course not. Su: Well, he can’t be doing a valuable business on the one hand, and at the same time be an imitator, imitating many things. Since the same imitator can’t do two kinds of imitation well at the same time anyway, Think of two imitations that are very similar, such as tragedy and comedy.Didn't you just say that they are two kinds of imitations? A: That's what I said.You are quite right that the same person cannot be both. SOCRATES: The same person cannot be both a good speaker and a good actor. A: Really. SUE: Comedians are not the same as tragedies.And these people are copycats, aren't they? A: Yes. SOCRATES: Human nature, O Admantus, is like many tiny coins, which cannot succeed in imitating many things, nor can they do many things themselves.The so-called imitations are nothing but copies of things themselves. A: Exactly. SOCRATES: If we stick to our first principle, that all defenders abandon all other duties, and devote themselves to the cause of liberty in the establishment of the city, and concentrate their energies on nothing else, then they should not take part in or imitate anything else.If they are to imitate, they should imitate, from childhood, those who have a proper relation to their profession--those who are brave, temperate, pious, and free.Anything that does not conform to the standards of a free man should not be participated in or cleverly imitated.As for other ugly things, of course we should not imitate them, otherwise we will imitate the ugly, make the fake come true, and become real and ugly.Have you ever noticed that you imitate continuously throughout your life from childhood to old age, and finally it becomes a habit, the habit becomes second nature, and every action, speech and thinking method is affected? A: Indeed. SOCRATES: Anyone whom we care to raise, whom we desire to be good, we should not allow them to imitate women—a man imitates a woman, young or old—quarreling with his husband, disrespecting ghosts, getting carried away with self-satisfaction; , and haggard with sorrow, and weeping all day long; not to mention imitating a woman in sickness, in love, or in childbirth. A: It shouldn't be. SOCRATES: Nor should they imitate slaves (whether female or male), and do what slaves do. A: Neither should. SOCRATES: Nor should I imitate bad men, imitate wretches, and do the opposite of the good things we have just said—quarreling with each other, making fun of each other, and speaking nasty things, drunk or sober.This kind of person's words and deeds are not enough to teach, I am sorry for others, and I am sorry for myself.I don't think they should get into the habit of being almost crazy in words and actions.Of course they should understand madmen and bad men and women, but they must never pretend to be crazy to imitate madmen. A: Exactly. SOCRATES: Can they then imitate the ironworkers, the other workmen, the oarsmen of warships, the command of the oarsmen, and the like? A: How is that possible?They are not even allowed to pay attention to these things. SOCRATES: Can they imitate things like the neighing of horses, the braying of cows, the roaring of great rivers, the whistling of sea tides, and the rumble of thunder? A: No.It has been forbidden for them not only not to be lunatics themselves, but also not to imitate others to be lunatics. SOCRATES: If I understand you, you mean that there is a narrative style that a really good man uses when he has something to say.Another narrative is for a person who is opposite in character and education. A: What are these two styles? SOCRATES: In my opinion, a gentle and decent man encounters the decent words and deeds of another good man in the course of his narration, and I think he would enjoy playing the role, as if he were the man himself, and not at all ashamed .He is especially willing to imitate the words and actions of this good man when he is firm and sensible; if this person is unfortunately ill or violent, or drunk, or encounters disaster, he is not willing to imitate him, or it is very reluctant to imitate him. .When he encounters a role that is not suitable for him, he is unwilling to play this role that is not as good as himself.He looks down on this kind of person, even if the other person has strengths worth imitating occasionally, he only does it occasionally, and he always feels embarrassed.He has no experience in imitating this kind of person, and at the same time he also hates himself, so he follows the same law and uses bad people and bad things as a model to mold himself.Unless it's a joke.He really despised this kind of stuff in his heart. A: Probably so. SOCRATES: Then he will use a narrative method that we have exemplified from Homer, that is, his genre is both narrative and imitation, but much more narrative than imitation.Do you agree with me? A: I agree.The storyteller must lead by example. Su: There is another kind of storyteller who tells everything.The worse his character is, the more he has no scruples. He imitates everything, and he feels that everything is worth imitating.So he tried his best to imitate everything in public, including the sound of thunder, wind, hail, pulleys, trumpet, flute, whistle, and various musical instruments that I mentioned just now. He can also bark dogs, sheep and birds.So his whole genre is all imitation of voice gestures, and very little about narrative. A: This kind of writer must be like this. Su: These are the two styles I mentioned. A: Yes. Su: Let me say that one of these two genres has not changed much.If we give it the right intonation and rhythm, wouldn't the result of a correct rapper almost just tell a story with the same intonation and the same cadence? ——Because there are few changes, the rhythm is almost the same. A: That's right. SOCRATES: Another genre requires a variety of tones and a variety of rhythms, if it is given suitable libretto expressing various voice movements. —for this genre contains all kinds of variations. A: That's absolutely right. Su: Do all poets and rappers use either one of the above two genres or both when choosing genres? A: That's for sure. Su: So, what shall we do?Will our city-state accept all these genres?Or does it accept only one of two pure genres?Or just accept that hybrid genre? A: If I had to vote, I'd be in favor of the purely good imitator genre. SOCRATES: But, my dear Ademantus, mixed genres are after all everyone's favourite; the favourites of children and their teachers, and of people in general, are the exact opposite of what you would choose. A: It is indeed everyone's favorite. SOCRATES: But perhaps you will say that this is incompatible with the system of our city-state.Because our people are neither multi-talented nor multi-talented, everyone can only do one thing. A: It is not suitable. SOCRATES: That is why our city-state is the only place of its kind: A shoemaker is always a shoemaker, and is not a helmsman as well as a shoemaker; a farmer is always a farmer, and is not also a judge in addition to being a farmer; a soldier is always a soldier, and is not a merchant in addition to being a soldier, and so on.isn't it? A: Yes. SOCRATES: Suppose, then, that a man, by virtue of his wit, can imitate everything, pretend to be anything, come to our city, recite psalms, and show off his talents, and think that we will bow down to him and call him holy, great, and popular. The characters are welcome.Contrary to his wishes, we will tell him that we cannot have such a person in our city; the law forbids it, and he has no place here.We will anoint his head with perfume, and we will adorn him with a crown of wool, and send him away to other cities. As for us, it is to our own advantage to appoint poets or story-tellers of a more serious and decent character, to imitate the language of good men, and to educate our warriors by telling stories according to the norms we have laid down when we began to legislate. A: That's exactly what we should do, assuming we have the right to do so. SOCRATES: Now, my friend, we may consider the discussion of the "musical" part of the language or of the story complete, because we have explained what should be said and how it should be said. ① Refers to literary education. A: I think so too. Su: Then, is there still the problem of the form of poems and tunes? A: Yes, obviously. SOCRATES: I think anyone can see at once what we should ask of this question, provided we say it consistently. Ge (laughing): Socrates, I am afraid that the "anyone" you mentioned does not include me. In a hurry, I am not sure what the opinions we should express are, although I have some ideas. SOCRATES: I suppose you can say with confidence that poetry has three parts—words, harmony, and rhythm. ①