Chapter 27 Conversation with the person in charge of the Democratic Construction Association and the Federation of Industry and Commerce

(December 7, 1956) You have raised some questions, and now I will talk about them. At a symposium for the industrial and commercial circles in October 1955, I once said: It is reasonable for Xiao Guiying in "Fishing and Killing" to cherish the furniture before leaving.Later I went to Jinan and Xuzhou to investigate, and also went to Qufu, Suxian, Bengbu, Nanjing, Suzhou, Shanghai, Songjiang, Hangzhou and other places to investigate. They said that the socialist transformation of capitalist industry and commerce was not completed by 1962. The problem, almost a few months.Ma Tianshui in Shanghai [1] said that the two ends of the industrial and commercial circles are small, the middle is large, and the advanced, middle and backward each account for 20%, 60%, and 20%.A female deputy mayor of Suzhou, she first talked about the four advantages of the business community, and then said the disadvantages, first encouraged and then criticized, and then encouraged and criticized, which is very good.According to the statistics of 2,600 industrial and commercial households in Jinan, Shandong, 25 percent are advanced, 50 percent are middle-of-the-road, and 25 percent are backward.The local comrades are still very dissatisfied, saying that there are so many people in the middle and backward.I am very satisfied, only 25% behind.At the Hangzhou Conference[2] in January this year, after the discovery of the "Three Antis" and "Five Antis"[3], everyone felt a little scared.A public stock representative came back late from a meeting. The proprietress cooked a bowl of noodles for him. The public stock representative did not dare to eat it for fear of being criticized.Some of our comrades only criticize and do not encourage the bourgeoisie, and do not realize that the bourgeoisie has made great progress in recent years, and that we should adopt a policy of both criticizing and encouraging the bourgeoisie.I went south to Hangzhou for a meeting in January and came up with forty articles[4].After returning to the Supreme State Council, I said that the transformation of industry and commerce will be basically completed in about three years.Comrade Liu Shaoqi's report at the Eighth National Congress [5] was different from what I said, saying that it was basically completed in the first half of this year.Who is right? The report of the Eighth National Congress of the Communist Party of China is right.Basic completion refers to public-private partnerships, not nationalization, which means complete completion.About three years, can be left or right.Some people misunderstood my sentence and wondered whether the fixed interest rate [6] should be cancelled.The cancellation of the fixed interest rate means that it is fully completed, not basically completed.

Beijing has both advantages and disadvantages.The advantage is that heroes gather in one place, but the disadvantage is that knowledge is not produced.If you want to produce knowledge, you need people from the locality.The same is true for your Federation of Industry and Commerce, with a few blank lines.People from the local area will come out with knowledge as soon as they blow it.People who live in Beijing have to go down for half a year a year.Beijing has theories and principles, but lacks reality; the localities have reality, but lacks a comprehensive understanding of the situation.The two work together just fine.

How long should the interest rate be fixed? This problem should be said to have been resolved by the Eighth National Congress of the Communist Party of China.Seven years of illness, three years of moxa.The principle is to solve the problem, and time obeys the principle.Whether this issue is handled well or not affects the bourgeoisie, democratic parties, democrats without party affiliation, intellectuals, religious circles, upper-class people of ethnic minorities, and it also has an impact internationally.The Communist Party does not want to save a few dollars on this, but must convince the workers that it is better to explain to them that it is better to have a fixed interest rate for a longer period of time than a shorter one.It can be anticlimactic, seven-year anticlimax, five-year snake end, and the third five-year plan.If it needs to be extended, it can be delayed until the fourth five-year plan.

Canceling the fixed interest rate is not easy to create an orgasm. Once there is an orgasm, it will be the people who receive more fixed interest rates, and most of them are advanced core elements.Those who want to get rid of their hats quickly are small and medium-sized capitalists, and some of them receive very little fixed interest.If small capitalists can’t wait for seven years, can they “cook the meal” first, cancel the fixed interest rate first, and take off their hats first? I have read that those who are required to pick it up in two or three years can pick it up first. Three do not publish in the newspaper."Flowing water seats" can be opened, first and last.The issue of "opening seats" is to be discussed and mastered by the Democratic Construction Association and the Federation of Industry and Commerce, whether to wait until the meeting is complete, or to open "flowing water seats".The central problem is not with the ninety per cent of industrial and commercial capitalists, but with the ten per cent.Among the 130,000 industrial and commercial households, there are only a few thousand or ten thousand that play an important role in the economy.The solution to the problem cannot be judged by the number of people. It is the big capitalists who represent the bourgeoisie.

The Democratic National Construction Association mainly represents the big capitalists.The main target of our solidarity and fixed interest is the big capitalists. These people are hosts and guests, not companions.Small capitalists are subordinate in nature, processing and ordering for large capitalists, and do not play a leading role.Let us not harm the interests of those who are important to the economy of the country.Proposing the small and medium-sized line did not clarify the problem.Of course, small and medium-sized capitalists also have a role to play and should be taken care of. Is the national bourgeoisie a revolutionary class or a counter-revolutionary class? It cannot be said to be a counter-revolutionary class.They have the right to vote, have always opposed imperialism, cooperated with the government, and abide by the constitution.Is the contradiction between the working class and the national bourgeoisie confrontational or non-antagonistic? If there is a compromise, there is no confrontation.The national bourgeoisie abides by the "Common Program" [7], supports the constitution, accepts public-private partnerships, and has no confrontation.The bourgeoisie is only partially opposed in the "three evils" and "five evils", and only those who have completely violated the law are opposed.In recent years, it has become more harmonious.Now we can't keep up with our work, we can't blame the subordinates, we can only blame the superiors, such as public-private relations, dare not eat noodles, dare not speak, "leftist" atmosphere.The symposium[8] proved that the progress of the bourgeoisie is the main thing, but there are still shortcomings and mistakes, and we must continue to reform.Among the bourgeoisie, those who are non-revolutionary and counter-revolutionary are individual, and the entire class cannot be said to be non-revolutionary or counter-revolutionary.Now some articles are too "left".There is no confrontation after the joint venture, and there was no confrontation before the joint venture.The Democratic National Construction Association, the Federation of Industry and Commerce, and the democratic parties cooperate with us, and there is no confrontation.It is necessary to organize people to write articles in this regard.

However, the bourgeoisie still has two sides, one is progressive and the other is backward.If one thinks that there is only one-sidedness, then there is no need for reformation, and saying that there is only one-sidedness is not conducive to transformation and progress.Our task is to encourage and criticize at the same time, like the two wheels of a cart and the two wings of a bird.Things in nature and society are unity of opposites.Criticism and self-criticism are also the unity of opposites.Encouraging and criticizing at the same time, the same is true for ten thousand years.I have said two sentences in the past: People can be analyzed, and there is no such thing as not making mistakes.The bourgeoisie can analyze it, and so can the Communist Party.

The basic nature of the free market in our country is still capitalist, although there are no capitalists anymore.It is paired with the national market.Shanghai's underground factories are also antithetical to joint ventures.Because the society needs it, it develops.To make it terrestrial, legal, you can hire workers.Now it takes three months to make clothes, and the clothes made by the cooperative factory have one long and one short legs, and the buttons have no holes, so the quality is poor.It is best to open a private factory to fight against those on the ground. You can also open a mom-and-pop shop and hire workers.It's called the New Economic Policy.I suspect that Russia's New Economic Policy[9] ended too early. After only two years of retreat, it turned into an offensive. Up to now, social supplies are not enough.We have retained 2.5 million private industrial and commercial workers (1.6 million in industry and 900,000 in commerce), while Russia has retained only 80,000 to 90,000.It can also be considered that as long as society needs it, underground factories can be increased.You can open a large private factory and make an agreement that it will not be confiscated for ten or twenty years.Those invested by overseas Chinese should not be confiscated for twenty or one hundred years.You can start an investment company and pay back the capital with interest.It can be state-run or privately run.Capitalism can be eliminated and capitalism can be reestablished.Of course, it depends on the conditions. As long as there are raw materials and sales, it can be done.At present, state-owned and joint ventures cannot meet the needs of the society. If there are raw materials and the state has difficulties in investing, private enterprises can open factories if the society needs them.There is also a way out for fixed interest rates.The low-quality products in Chongqing are not up to standard in the peak season, but meet the standard in the off-season, because the social demand is too large and the supply is insufficient in the peak season.The lack of supply is long-term and a good sign, because purchasing power has increased.Find a way.The fixed interest rate needs to be quite long, and the rush to nationalize is not conducive to production.The public-private partnership has advantages and is better than no partnership. The enthusiasm of the workers has increased, and the attitude of the management has also changed.

National accumulation depends mainly on industry and not on agriculture.The average annual state budget revenue is 27 billion yuan, and agriculture only has 3 billion yuan, and the scissors difference between industrial and agricultural products is only about 7 billion yuan.Why do we keep capitalists? Because the country needs it, it is beneficial to the people, and it can increase industrial products.An alliance with the national bourgeoisie is necessary to strengthen the alliance with the peasantry, because the peasantry needs industrial products in exchange.At the same time, it can better stabilize prices and ensure market supply.Preserving the bourgeoisie during the transition period is of great importance.Comrade Liu Shaoqi's report at the Eighth National Congress of the Communist Party of China explained the reasons for this.

What will the Federation of Industry and Commerce do in the future? It can also coexist for a long time and supervise each other.The fixed interest rate has been abolished, and capitalists also need to reform.The name of the Federation of Industry and Commerce can be preserved.Historical names should be preserved, why not the names of the Commercial Press and Zhonghua Book Company, Ruifuxiang and Tongrentang[10] should be preserved for 10,000 years.The famous signboards all over the country should be photographed. There are many signboards with well-written characters, and future generations will not know if they are not preserved.I am not happy that the "Declaration" [11] has been cancelled. "Liberation Daily" can be reverted to "Shenbao".Party newspapers can also use their original names.When I was young, I went to the countryside to visit relatives, and the "Shenbao" was sold there, which shows that it is deeply rooted in the hearts of the people.The content is changed and the name is saved.Wang Mazi, Donglaishun, and Quanjude[12] must be preserved forever.The content is socialist, and the name is from the feudal era. "Great Wall" and "Province" have been called like this since the Yuan Dynasty.

Han Yu[13] has an article called "Sending Poor Essays", and we want to write an essay on sending poor people.It will take decades for China to send the poor ghosts away. Published based on the transcript of the conversation kept by the Central Archives. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ note [1] Ma Tianshui (1911-1988), a native of Tang County, Hebei.At that time, he was the secretary of the Secretariat of the Shanghai Municipal Committee of the Communist Party of China. [2] Hangzhou meeting refers to the meeting held in Hangzhou from January 4 to 9, 1956, attended by some central leaders and some local leaders.The meeting mainly discussed the "National Agricultural Development Program (Draft) from 1956 to 1967".

[3] "Three Antis" refers to the struggle against corruption, waste, and bureaucracy carried out in state agencies, military forces, and state-owned enterprises from December 1951 to October 1952. "Five Antis" refers to the struggle launched in capitalist industry and commerce across the country in 1952 against bribery, tax evasion, theft of state property, cutting corners, and theft of economic intelligence. [4] Article 40 refers to the "Outline of National Agricultural Development from 1956 to 1967 (Draft)", see note [4] on page 3 of this volume. [5] The Eighth National Congress, the Eighth National Congress of the Communist Party of China.See note [2] on page 98 of this volume. [6] Fixed interest is a form of redemption of the means of production of national capitalists after the implementation of public-private partnerships in the capitalist industry and commerce in my country, that is, regardless of the profit or loss of the enterprise, the private equity is determined by the state every year according to the assets and capital verification at the time of the joint venture. Amount, fixed interest (generally 5% per annum) is issued to capitalists.Beginning to pay fixed interest in 1956.Payments ceased in September 1966. [7] "Common Program", see note [12] on page 46 of this volume. [8] Refers to the meeting jointly held by the Fourth Office, the Fifth Office and the Eighth Office of the State Council from July 6 to 9, 1956, with the participation of the All-China Federation of Industry and Commerce, the China Democratic Construction Association and the heads of relevant government departments forum.At the meeting, representatives of the industrial and commercial circles reflected a lot on issues related to the transformation of private industry and commerce, such as public-private relations, personnel arrangements, wages, fixed shares and fixed interest, and arrangements for small businesses and hawkers, and put forward many criticisms and suggestions. [9] The New Economic Policy is an economic policy implemented by the Soviet Union in 1921 to replace "war communism".The main contents are: replace the surplus grain collection system with grain tax; develop commerce, allow free trade and private business to exist within a certain limit; implement the economic accounting system in state-owned enterprises, and develop state capitalism in the form of concessions and leases. [10] Ruifuxiang refers to Beijing Ruifuxiang Silk Cloth Store, which opened around 1870.Tongrentang, referring to Beijing Tongrentang Pharmacy, opened in 1669. [11] "Shenbao", founded in Shanghai in 1872, ceased publication in 1949 when Shanghai was liberated. [12] Wang Mazi refers to Beijing Wang Mazi knife and scissors shop, which opened in 1651.Donglaishun refers to Beijing Donglaishun Restaurant, which opened in 1903.Quanjude, referring to Beijing Quanjude Roast Duck Restaurant, opened in 1864. [13] Han Yu (768824), born in Heyang (now Meng County), Henan, was a writer and philosopher in the Tang Dynasty.