Chapter 8 Volume 5-1

Su: Such a country, such a system, and such a person, I say, are all good and just; if it is a good system in terms of managing the country and cultivating personal qualities, then the rest All systems are evil and fallacious.Evil institutions can be divided into four categories. G: Which four categories? SOCRATES: [While I was about to enumerate the four kinds of institutions in what seemed to be a natural order, Polemachos, sitting not far from Admantus, stretched out his hand and grabbed Glaucon from above. by the shoulder of his jacket, pulled him closer, and whispered a few whispers, of which we heard only "Shall we let him go, or what?"Then Ademanthus said, "It is impossible to let him go." And he said it quite loudly.So I asked them:] You two said "you can't let him go", who is this "he" referring to?

A: Refers to you. Su: Refer to me, may I ask why? A: We feel that you are being lazy, that you are avoiding a whole not insignificant section of the whole debate, trying to slip through it without explaining it to us.You wish to say something casually and get away, as if it were obvious to anyone that the question about women and children, namely, that the principle "everything in common among friends" can be applied to women and children of. ①See volume 424. SOCRATES: Am I wrong, Ademanthus? A: What you said is right, but the so-called "right", like other things, requires an explanation, how to share the law?There are different approaches, and you should tell us which approach you have in mind.We have been waiting a long time to hear what you have to say about the birth and upbringing of children, and what you have to say about what you say about women and children in common.We feel that the matter is of great importance, and whether it is done right will have a profound and far-reaching impact on the country.Now that you haven't explained this problem clearly, you want to start another problem.You must make this matter as clear as any other, and before that, as you have just heard, we are determined not to let you leave here.

G: Well, I vote for that too. Color: Socrates, you may safely and boldly regard this as the unanimous resolution of all of us. Su: Ouch, what the hell are you doing to get along with me like this?You have to re-debate the state system from the beginning.What a big debate this is causing. I always thought that the debate was over, and I was very glad.Because as long as you have no objection and accept my idea, I will be satisfied.You do not see what a heated debate your request will cause.I had expected it a long time ago, so I tried my best to avoid getting stuck in it and not being able to pull it out!

Color: Cough!What are we all doing here?Do you think we are here to pan for gold and make a fortune, not to listen to lectures? Su: There is always a limit to listening to lectures. G: Socrates, for a sensible man, the limit to listening to such talk is death.So don't worry about us, don't be bored yourself, answer our questions, tell us how you think our defenders should communalize women and children; Everyone recognizes that the first stage is the most difficult period of education, how should we train them in this period.So please tell us what to do with all this. SOCRATES: My good friend, it is not easy to explain this; there are more doubts here than in the previous discussion.Because people will doubt whether what I suggest will work; if it works, people will doubt whether it is the best way.Therefore, my good friend, I am afraid to touch this question, lest my theory should be regarded as mere fantasy.

G: Don't be afraid.Our audience is kind to you, trusts you, and understands your difficulties. SOCRATES: Do you mean, old friend, to encourage me? Greg: Yes. Sue: But the result is just the opposite.Because, if I'm sure about what I'm going to say, that kind of encouragement is very good.When a person and like-minded friends discuss the most important issues that everyone cares about, they know what they are talking about.However, if, like my current situation, I do not know what to do and panic temporarily, it is terrible and dangerous.What I’m afraid of is not being ridiculed, that’s childish; what I’m afraid of is losing the truth, falling where I shouldn’t fall, not counting my own fall, and dragging all my friends down into a big pile!So, Glaucon, before I speak, I salute the Furies and beg her forgiveness.In my opinion, murder by accident is a small crime, but it is a great crime to confuse beauty and ugliness, good and evil, justice and injustice, and deceive the world.So this kind of thing is a kind of adventure, which can only be done among enemies, not among friends.So your encouragement cannot increase my courage.

Ge (with a smile): O Socrates!Even if you occasionally make mistakes in the debate, which is harmful to us, we still release you, just like in the case of manslaughter, and pardon you without guilt, not counting that you have deceived us.So please speak boldly! SOCRATES: Well, then, according to the law, whoever is acquitted is innocent; since this is the case in the law, it must be the case here as well. Ge: In that case, let's go on, don't shirk. SOCRATES: Now, then, we must go back and tell what, in their proper order, should have been said long ago.It might be a good idea to put the women on the stage after the men's show, especially since you are anxious to hear me.For men brought up and educated as we have said before, I think that the only right way for them to keep and use children and women is as we suggested when we first began to discuss the question of men.Do you remember when we tried to argue that they should be guardians of the flock?

① Use animals as an example.See 375-376, 422D, 466D, 467B, 491D-E, 537A, 546A-B, 564A. Greg: Yes. SOCRATES: Let us keep the metaphor, and give women the same upbringing and training, as we see fit. Ge: What kind of training method? Su: That's right.Should we expect the female dog to help the male dog in the pursuit and search, and participate in all security work?Or let the female dog hide in the den, just give birth to puppies, raise the puppies, and let the male dog do the job of guarding the flock alone? G: We should do everything together except that the female police dogs are considered weaker and the males stronger.

Su: If you don't give the same breeding and the same training to a kind of beast, can you use them regardless of each other? Grid: Can't. SOCRATES: Well, if we use women without distinction as we use men, we must first give them the same education. Greg: Yes. SOCRATES: We have always educated men with music and gymnastics. Greg: Yes. SOCRATES: Then, in order to make the same use of women, we must educate them in the same two subjects, and also give them a military education. G: Seems reasonable from what you said. SOCRATES: Well, many of the suggestions we have just made, if they are carried out, I am afraid they might be amused, because they are contrary to the current customs.

Greg: Indeed. Su: What do you think is the most ridiculous thing?Isn't it obvious that women are exercising naked with men in the gym?Not only young women do this, but also older women, like the old men in the gym, wrinkled and ugly, but they still keep exercising there.Isn't this ridiculous? ① Men in ancient Greece were naked when they practiced. The word "gym" (γNμLM′σιBL) originally meant "a place for naked exercise". Grid: Ah!In the current situation, it seems a little ridiculous. Su: Now that we have started discussing the reform of women's physical education and literary and artistic education, especially the issue of women's military training, such as carrying weapons and riding horses, we must continue.We will definitely hear the wisecracks and sarcasms of literati and refined scholars, so don't be afraid.

G: You are quite right. Su: Now that we have set out, even if we encounter difficulties on the legislative journey, we must not back down.We beseech the critics to put aside their frivolity for a moment, and to be serious; let them recall that the Greeks, not so long ago, considered it absurd to show a man naked, as do most savages now. Woolen cloth.When first the Cretans and later the Spartans began to practice naked, you know it was used as a joke by the witty comedians of the time? G: Exactly. SOCRATES: But since (I think) experience proves that it is better to have all such things naked than covered up, and again, what is ridiculous to the eye is often not ridiculous in the presence of what the reason thinks best.This, then, shows that the words of those who do not think evil is ridiculous, but everything else is ridiculous; who do not satirize ignorance and evil, but keep their eyes on other phenomena to be ridiculed; they earnestly endeavor to establish some other standard of beauty than the good.

G: You're absolutely right. SO: The first thing we need to agree on is whether these proposals will work.right?For whether the speaker is joking or in earnest, we must be prepared to ask the question: are women by nature capable of all the jobs of men, or nothing, or only a limited number of them? ?If we say that we can do some of them, does war include them?We start the discussion in this way, and then gradually deepen it, so that we can reach the most satisfactory conclusion.Isn't this the best way? G: This is an excellent method. SOCRATES: Shall we then challenge ourselves on behalf of our imaginary opponents, lest we only hear our side of the story because no one is defending them? G: You can absolutely do that. SOCRATES: Then, shall we say something for them: "My dear Socrates, Glaucon! There is no need for others to criticize you. When you yourself began to discuss the establishment of your state, you already agreed A principle that each person should do the work that naturally suits him. G: I think we did agree, didn't we? SOCRATES: They will ask: Is there not a natural great difference between men and women?When we admit that there is, they will ask us whether we should give men and women different jobs to take care of these natural differences?When we say yes, they will go on asking: Isn't it contradictory to say that men and women should have the same occupations and that there are great natural differences between them?So what to do?Can you smart people answer this question? G: It is not easy for me to answer such a sudden question immediately.I can only ask you to defend our case, and say what you like. SOCRATES: My dear Glaucon, I have long seen these difficulties, and many others like them, and I am afraid to touch upon the question of legislation concerning the public ownership and education of women and children. G: Really, it's not like it's going to be easy.Not easy. Su: Of course it's not easy.But since we fell into the water, we had no choice but to swim whether it was in a small pool or in the sea. Grid: Exactly. SOCRATES: Well, we shall have to swim, and hope to survive this debate. Let's hope Arrian the Musician's dolphins carry us away, or some other first aid. ①See Section 24 of the first volume of Herodotus' History. G: It seems so. Sue: Well, let's see if we can find a way out.We have admitted that different endowments should have different occupations, and that men and women have different endowments.But now we say that people with different endowments should have the same occupation. Isn't this a rebuttal to ourselves? G: Not bad at all. SOCRATES: My dear Glaucon, what a power the art of argument is! G: What's going on? SOCRATES: Because I have seen many people even fall into this trap involuntarily, thinking that they are arguing when in fact they are just quarreling.Because they don't know how to distinguish the different meanings when studying a sentence, they only know to look for contradictions in the words.They chew on words and talk back to each other, not in a dialectical discussion. G: Yes, it happens on many occasions, but do you think it's the same here? Sue: Absolutely.In any case, I'm afraid we're in danger of getting into a literal spat here without knowing it. G: How could this be? SOCRATES: Different endowments should not be engaged in the same occupation.For this principle, we take courage literally and care about everything, but we never stop to think about what it means to have different endowments, what does it mean to have the same endowments, and to give different endowments to different endowments. Occupation, what does it mean to assign the same occupation to the same endowment? G: We really haven't thought about it. SOCRATES: It seems that, on this principle, we may ask ourselves whether bald men and long-haired men are of the same or different nature; and if we agree that they are of different nature, we shall forbid the long-haired man to be a shoemaker A bald man is not forbidden to be a shoemaker, or a bald man is not forbidden to be a shoemaker and a long-haired man is not forbidden to be a shoemaker. G: This is ridiculous as hell. Su: The ridiculous reason is that the similarities and differences of endowments we are talking about are by no means absolute and unlimited, but only related to the similarities and differences of industries.For example, a man and a woman who both have the ability to treat medicine have the same endowment.Don't you think so? Greg: Right. Su: But a male doctor and a male carpenter have different endowments. G: It is indeed different. Su: Then, if we find that men or women are more suitable for a certain occupation among men and women, we can assign a certain occupation to men or women.However, if we find that the only difference between the two sexes is a physiological difference, that the female fertilizes and produces children, and the male releases sperm to produce children, we cannot conclude from this that there should be occupations of the kind we are talking about between men and women. difference; we still believe that our Guardians and their wives should hold the same profession. G: You are quite right. Su: Secondly, we want to ask those who say otherwise, to tell us which skills and occupations contribute to the construction of the country, which are only suitable for women, and which are only suitable for men? G: In any case, you are asking a fair and reasonable question. SOCRATES: Some people may say as you just said: it is not easy to find a satisfactory answer at once, but it is not too difficult if you give them time to think about it. G: He might say so. SOCRATES: Shall we then ask our opponents to follow us all the time, that we may be able to prove to him that there is nothing in the governance of a country that only a man is fit to do and a woman cannot do? G: Of course. SOCRATES: Well, let us ask him to answer this question. "When you say that one person has a natural talent for something and another doesn't, on what basis? Is it because one person learns easily and another person learns difficultly, right? Is it because some people You can understand it as soon as you learn it, and you can analogize it if you understand it, and draw inferences from one instance; Some people have been studying for a long time, and they don't even remember what they have learned?Is it because some people's bodies can fully serve the soul, while others' bodies hinder the development of the soul?Is there anything else you can use as a basis for distinguishing good talent from non-good talent on each issue? " G: No one can find anything else on which to base the distinction. SOCRATES: Is there, then, an activity of people in which the male is not superior to the female in any of the above respects?Shall we enumerate in detail such activities as weaving, cooking, pastry making, etc., in which women consider themselves experts, and feel ashamed of being the butt of ridicule if a man wins? G: You're right.We can say that one sex is far inferior to the other in everything.Although it is true that many women are better at many things than many men, the overall situation is as you say. SOCRATES: Well, my friends, there is no work of running a country that is exclusively for women because it is done by women, or for men because it is done by men. Natural talents of every kind are equally distributed in both sexes.According to nature, both men and women can participate in various functions, but generally speaking, women are weaker than men. G: Exactly. SOCRATES: Shall we then assign all duties to men and none to women? G: Ah, how can that work? SOCRATES: I think we'd better put it this way; some women have a talent for medicine and some don't, and some women have a talent for music and some don't. G: Indeed. Sue: Can we say: Some women are athletic and like to fight, and some women are not naturally fond of fighting and don't like sports? Grid: I can say it. Su: In the same way, can we say that some love wisdom, some hate it, some are strong, and some are cowardly? G: The same can be said. SOCRATES: So some women are gifted as guardians, and some are not; and as for men, shouldn't we choose male defenders according to the same endowments? G: That's right. SOCRATES: Then, a woman and a man can have the same talents and are suitable for the post of defender of the state, the only difference is that the woman is weaker and the man is stronger. G: Apparently so. Su: Therefore, this kind of woman should be chosen to live with this kind of man and take on the role of guardian, since women and men have similar talents and similar endowments. G: Of course. SOCRATES: The same endowment should be given the same job, shouldn't it? Greg: Yes. Su: Let’s go back to the front.We agree that it is not against nature to give musical and physical exercise to the Wives of the Guardians. G: Without a doubt. SOCRATES: Our legislation is therefore not unrealistic, since the laws we propose are natural.It seems that the current popular practice is unnatural. G: It seems so. SOCRATES: Well, the question we have to consider is: will our proposal work?If it works, are they the best? G: That's the question. SOCRATES: We've agreed it works, haven't we? Greg: Yes. SOCRATES: So, the next question we have to agree on is: Is what we propose the best? G: Obviously yes. SOCRATES: Well, we do not use two different methods of education for women and men in order to produce guardians, especially since the natural endowments we provide are the same for both women and men. G: It should be the same education. Su: So, what is your opinion on the following question? G: What's the problem? S: The question is: do you think some men are better and some are worse, or are all men the same? G: Of course they are not the same. S: So, which men are the better men in this country we are building?The defender, educated as we have described, or the shoemaker, educated in the art of shoemaking? G: That's a ridiculous question. Su: I understand.But tell me, are the Guardians the best citizens? G: It's the best.much better. S: So, are these female guardians also the best women? G: Also the best. SOCRATES: Is there anything better than a country that produces these extraordinary women and men? Greg: None. SOCRATES: Is it the result of the musical and gymnastic education we have described? G: Of course it is. SOCRATES: The legislation we propose, then, is not only possible, but also the best for the country. G: Exactly. SOCRATES: Then the female guardians must practice naked, since they clothe themselves with virtue.It is their only duty that they must fight alongside the men and perform the duties of other guardians.Among these jobs, they take on lighter jobs because women's constitutions are weaker.Any man who ridicules a woman's (from the best motives) practice of nudity, who, as the poet Pindar puts it, "picks the unripe fruit"1 and laughs at his own ignorance, obviously does not understand what he is doing. What are you laughing at, what are you doing.It should be noted that the saying "what is beneficial is beautiful, what is harmful is ugly" is a famous saying now and will be famous in the future. ①See Pinda, Chapter 209.Plato has changed the text here. G: I totally agree. SOCRATES: In discussing women's law, we may say that we have crossed the first wave, and we are fortunate to have escaped the catastrophe.We have made it mandatory for male and female guardians to occupy the same office; and it has been fairly consistently shown that this suggestion is not only practicable, but beneficial. G: Indeed, the waves you have crossed are not small! Su: Once you see the second wave, you won't say that the first wave is big. G: Well, go ahead and let me take a look. SOCRATES: As a consequence of this argument, and of all the preceding ones, there is, in my opinion, the following law. G: What kind? S: These women should belong to these men, and no one should form a monogamous family with anyone.In the same way, children are also common, and parents do not know who their children are, and children do not know who their parents are. G: This is a bigger wave than what I said before, and it makes people wonder whether this suggestion will work and whether it will be of any benefit. Su: Ah, there is no need to doubt whether there is any benefit. No one will deny that the equal rights of women and children have the greatest benefit.But will it work?In my opinion, this question will be extremely debated. Ge: Both issues are highly contested. Su: Do you mean to say that I'm about to be attacked.I had hoped that you would agree that this suggestion was useful, so that I could avoid the question of whether it would work or not. Ge: Don't even think about sliding over, let me find out!You are not allowed to go, you have to make sense of both suggestions. Su: Well, I am willing to be punished, but please forgive me and let me have a rest.There is that sort of idler who wanders alone, dreaming, not eager to find the means of fulfilling their desires, who suspends them for a while, and does not bother himself with the question of what works and what does not work; Arranging those important events in imagination, happily describing how to carry out and realize them; in doing so, their originally lazy minds became more lazy.I also fall into this problem, and I am tempted to postpone the question of whether it will work and work on it later.Now let us suppose that this works; and with your permission I will first examine how the rulers arrange these things in practice.At the same time, it must be proved that these arrangements are of great benefit to the country and the defenders.I am prepared to discuss this issue with you first, and then consider other issues, if you agree. G: I agree, please go on. SOCRATES: I think, then, that the rulers and their assistants, if they are to be worthy of the name, must be willing to take orders, and the rulers must give orders—in some matters by law, in others we leave them to their own discretion. issue orders in accordance with the spirit of the law. G: Probably. SOCRATES: Suppose, then, that you, the legislator, elect some men, and at the same time elect some women, who have the same qualities as these men, and assign these women to these men.These men and women eat and live together without any private property; they are together and exercise together, and natural needs lead to the union of the sexes.Is not the situation of which I speak a corollary? G: This is not a necessity of geometry, but a necessity of passion.The necessity of passion is more compulsive and persuasive than the necessity of geometry for the actions of most men. Sue: That's true.But again, Glaucon, it is profane in a happy country if there is no order and disorder in the conduct of the sexes, or in any other respect of their conduct.Our rulers will never allow this. G: Yes, that's not right. SOCRATES: It is clear, therefore, that the affairs of marriage should be arranged as solemnly as possible, and that marriage can be most beneficial if it is solemn. G: Indeed. SOCRATES: So, how can it be most beneficial?Please tell me, Glaucon, I have seen some greyhounds and quite a few pure-bred cocks in your house, have you noticed their mating and reproduction? G: What? SOCRATES: First of all, among these purebreds—although they are all purebreds— Are some proofs better than others? Greg: Yes. S: Then, do you breed them equally, or do you select the best breeds with the greatest attention? G: I choose the best to breed. Su: Besides, do you choose the youngest, or the oldest, or try to select those who are in their prime for breeding? G: I choose those who are in their prime. Sue: If you don't select breeds like this, don't you want your hounds and rooster breeds to go from bad to worse? Greg: Yes. S: What about horses and other beasts?Would things have been different? G: If it is not the case, is it to blame? Sue: My God!What skill, my dear friend, would require from our rulers, if this principle were equally applicable to men! Grid: Yes.But why do you say you need a smart wrist? Su: Because they need to use a large amount of the drug we mentioned earlier①.Ordinary doctors can handle patients who are willing to take a prescribed diet and do not need to take medicine. If we encounter a patient who needs to take medicine, we know that we need a doctor who dares to think and act. ① metaphor.The meaning is the same as that at 389B above. Greg: Yes.But what does it have to do with our problem? Su: This is probably because the rulers sometimes have to use some lies and deceit for the benefit of the governed.I thought we said, they are both used as a drug. G: Yes, that's right. S: So, in terms of their marriage and childbearing, this "pair" does not seem to be the smallest "pair". G: How is this? SOCRATES: From the agreed conclusions above, we can deduce that the best men must be combined with the best women as much as possible, and vice versa, the worst should be combined with the worst as few as possible.The offspring of the best must be brought up, and the offspring of the worst not, if the breed is to be of the highest quality; and no one but the rulers should know how these things go.Otherwise, there will inevitably be quarrels and disunity among the guardians. G: Exactly. Su: According to the law, there must be holidays. The bride and groom gather together to feast and sacrifice to the gods. Poets write hymns and congratulate the ceremony.The number of marriages should be determined by the rulers considering war, disease and other factors; an appropriate population of citizens should be maintained, and the city-state should not be too large or too small. Greg: Right. SOCRATES: I think some ingenious method of drawing lots must be devised, so that the unqualified can only blame themselves for bad luck and not the governor every time they court a mate. G: Absolutely. Su: I think that when young people prove their heroism in defending the country in the war, they must be given honors and bonuses, and more opportunities should be given to cooperate with women and obtain as many descendants as possible from them. G: Exactly. Su: The children born will be brought up by the officials in charge of these matters.These officials may be male, female, or both.Because these official positions are equally open to women and men. Greg: Yes. Sue: The children of the good ones, I think they will be taken to the nursery school and brought up by the nanny; the nanny lives in another part of the city.As for children born with congenital defects, ordinary or otherwise, they will be dealt with in secrecy, and no one will know the circumstances. Greg: Yes.This is necessary to keep the ruler's breed pure. S: They oversee the upbringing of the children, and when the mothers have milk, they guide the mothers to nurseries, but try not to make them recognize their own babies.If the mother's milk is not enough, they find another wet nurse.They will take care that the mothers do not nurse for too long, leaving the vigils and other troubles to the wet nurses and nurses. G: You made it so easy for the guardian's wife to raise the children! Su: It should be.Now let's talk about the second part of our plan. We have said that children should be born when their parents are young and strong. G: Indeed. Su: Do you agree that the best time for a woman is twenty years, and for a man thirty years? G: Which years do you want to choose? SOCRATES: A woman should bring up children for the state from twenty to forty, a man from past the age of fastest running to fifty-five. G: This is the time when men and women are full of energy, both physically and mentally. SOCRATES: Therefore, if anyone over this age or under this age also bears children to the state, we say that it is sacrilegious and unjust.Because they don't get the blessing of priests and priestesses and the whole city-state for giving birth (if things are not discovered)-this kind of blessing is available at every official wedding, praying for good parents who have contributed to the country. The offspring born are better and better for the country than the old ones - such children are the product of ignorance and fornication. G: Exactly. SOCRATES: The same law applies in the case of a man in his prime having sex with a woman in her prime without the consent of the governor.Because we're going to say they dropped a illegitimate child on the country, which is unlawful and blasphemous. G: Exactly. SOCRATES: But I think women and men are past the reproductive years, and we let men be with any woman except daughters and mothers, daughters of daughters, and mothers of mothers.As for women, they can also get along with any man, except son, father, or father's father and son's son.We must warn them that under no circumstances should the fetus be allowed to see the light of day, and if it cannot be prevented, it must be dealt with, because such offspring should not be raised. G: What you said makes a lot of sense.But how will they distinguish each father, daughter, and the various kinship relations you have just described? S: They are hard to tell apart.But there is a way, that when one of them is a bridegroom, he shall have as his sons all the boys born in the tenth or seventh month of his marriage, and the girls his daughters; Call him father.He also called the children of these children grandchildren, and these grandchildren called his peers grandparents.All children refer to boys and girls born during their parents' life as brothers and sisters.They are not allowed to have the kind of sexual relationship we just talked about.However, the law permitted brothers and sisters to live together if it was decided by lot and the oracle at Delphi agreed. G: Exactly. SOCRATES: So, Glaucon, this is the common practice of the women and children among the guardians of our city.This approach is consistent with the rest of our political system, and it is the best of the best.This we must prove in the following argument.Do you think so? G: Indeed. SOCRATES: Therefore, in order to reach a consensus, shall we not first ask ourselves: what is the highest good of the state system, what is the highest good to which the legislator enacts, and what is the worst evil; Is it not to consider whether the proposals we have just made are consistent with the footprints of good and not with those of evil? G: Absolutely. Su: So, for a country, is there anything worse than splitting into one?Is there anything better than the unity of many into one? G: Of course not. Su: Then, when all citizens try their best to share joys and sorrows with each other, is this sharing weal and woe the bond of unity? G: Exactly. Su: If we live in the same country and encounter the same experience, but each person has different feelings, different sorrows and joys, then the bond of unity will be broken. G: Of course. SOCRATES: Doesn't this happen because the citizens don't agree with each other about the words "mine," "not mine," and "others"? G: Exactly. Su: Then, if the majority of people in a country can equally say "mine" and "not mine" to the same thing, then this country is the best governed country. G: The best of the best. SOCRATES: A state is best governed when it is most like a man.For example, if one of us has a finger injury, the whole body and mind, as a human organism, can feel the pain felt by a part of us under the unified command. This is what we say. There is pain. The same principle can be applied to other parts of a person, say a person feels pain or pleasure. G: Also, as you say, the best-governed states are most like an organism whose parts are all related. Su: Then, any citizen sometimes has good experiences and sometimes has bad experiences. This kind of country is likely to say that what suffers is always a part of the country itself, and that good things should be shared, and difficulties should be shared. 格：一个管理得很好的国家必须是这样的。 苏：现在是时候了，我们应该回到我们这个国家来看看，是否这里可以看到我们所一致同意过的那些品质，不象别的国家。 格：我们应该这样做。 苏：好，那么，在我们的国家里，也有治理者和人民，象在别的国家里一样，是吗？ G: That's right. 苏：他们彼此互称公民，是吗？ G: Of course it is. 苏：在别的国家里，老百姓对他们的治理者，除了称他们为公民外，还称他们什么呢？ 格：在很多国家里叫他们首长；在平民国家里叫他们治理者。 苏：在我们国家里对于治理者除了叫他们公民外还叫他们什么？ 格：保护者与辅助者。 苏：他们怎样称呼人民？ 格：纳税者与供应者。 苏：别的国家的治理者怎样称呼人民？ 格：奴隶。 苏：治理者怎样互相称呼？ 格：同事们。 苏：我们的治理者怎样互相称呼？ 格：护卫者同事们。 苏：告诉我，在别的国家里是不是治理者同事们之间有的以朋友互称，有的却不是？ 格：是的，这很普遍。 苏：他们是不是把同事中的朋友看作自己人，把其他同事看作外人？ Greg: Yes. 苏：你们的护卫者们怎么样？其中有没有人把同事看成或说成外人的？ 格：当然不会有。他一定会把他所碰到的任何人看作是和他有关系的，是他的兄弟、姐妹，或者父亲、母亲，或他的儿子、女儿，或他的祖父、祖母、孙子、孙女。 苏：你答复得好极了。请再告诉我一点。这些亲属名称仅仅是个空名呢，还是必定有行动来配合这些名称的呢？对所有的父辈，要不要按照习惯，表示尊敬，要不要照顾他们，顺从他们，既然反此的行为是违天背义为神人所共愤的？要不要让这些道理成为人们对待父亲和其他各种亲属应有态度的，从全体人民那里一致听到的神谕呢？还是让别的某种教导从小就充塞孩子们的耳朵呢？ 格：要这些道理。如果亲属名称仅仅是口头上说说的，而无行动配合，这是荒谬的。 苏：那么，这个国家不同于别的任何国家，在这里大家更将异口同声歌颂我们刚才所说的“我的”这个词儿。如果有任何一个人的境遇好，大家就都说“我的境遇好”，如果有任何一个人的境遇不好，大家就都说“我的境遇不好”。 Grid: Exactly. 苏：我们有没有讲过，这种认识这种措词能够引起同甘共苦彼此一体的感觉？ 格：我们讲过。并且讲得对。 苏：那么护卫者们将比别的公民更将公有同一事物，并称之为“我的”，而且因这种共有关系，他们苦乐同感。 G: Exactly. 苏：那么，除了国家的政治制度之外，在护卫者之间妇女儿童的公有不也是产生苦乐与共的原因吗？ 格：这无疑是主要的原因。 苏：我们还曾一致说过，这是一个国家的最大的善，我们还曾把一个管理得好的国家比之于个人的身体，各部分苦乐同感，息息相关。 格：我们一致这样说过，说得非常对。 苏：我们还可以说，在辅助者之间妇女儿童公有对国家来说也是最大的善，并且是这种善的原因。 格：完全可以这样说。 苏：这个说法和我们前面的话是一致的。因为我想我们曾经说过，我们的护卫者不应该有私人的房屋、土地以及其它私人财产。他们从别的公民那里，得到每日的工资，作为他们服务的报酬，大家一起消费。真正的护卫者就要这个样子。 G: You're right. 苏：那么，我们已讲过的和我们正在这里讲的这些规划，是不是能确保他们成为更名副其实的保卫者，防止他们把国家弄得四分五裂，把公有的东西各各说成“这是我的”，各人把他所能从公家弄到手的东西拖到自己家里去，把妇女儿童看作私产，各家有各家的悲欢苦乐呢？他们最好还是对什么叫自己的有同一看法，行动有同一目标，尽量团结一致，甘苦与共。 G: Exactly. 苏：那么，彼此涉讼彼此互控的事情，在他们那里不就不会发生了吗？因为他们一切公有，一身之外别无长物，这使他们之间不会发生纠纷。因为人们之间的纠纷，都是由于财产，儿女与亲属的私有造成的。 格：他们之间将不会发生诉讼。 苏：再说，他们之间也不大可能发生行凶殴打的诉讼事件了。因为我们将布告大众，年龄相当的人之间，自卫是善的和正义的。这样可以强迫他们注意锻炼，增进体质。 G: Exactly. 苏：这样一项法令还有一个好处。一个勃然发怒的人经过自卫，怒气发泄，争吵也就不至于走到极端了。 G: Indeed. 苏：权力应该赋于年长者，让他们去管理和督教所有比较年轻的人。 格：道理很明白。 苏：再说，理所当然，年轻人是不大会对老年人动武或者殴打的，除非治理者命令他们这样做。我认为年轻人也不大会对老年人有其他无礼行为的。有两种心理在约束他们：一是畏惧之心，一是羞耻之心。羞耻之心阻止他去冒犯任何可能是他父辈的人；畏惧之心使他生怕有人来援助受害者，而援助者可能是他的儿辈、兄弟或父辈。 格：结果当然是这样。 苏：因此，我们的法律将从一切方面促使护卫者们彼此和平相处。right? 格：很和平！ 苏：只要他们内部没有纷争，就不怕城邦的其他人和他们闹纠纷或相互闹纠纷了。 格：是的，不必怕。 苏：他们将摆脱一些十分琐碎无聊的事情。这些事是不值得去烦心的，我简直不愿去谈到它们。诸如，要去奉承富人，要劳神焦思去养活一家大小，一会儿借债，一会儿还债，要想尽办法挣几个大钱给妻子仆役去花费。所有这些事琐琐碎碎，大家都知道，不值一提。 格：啊，这个道理连瞎子也能明白。 苏：那么，他们将彻底摆脱这一切，如入极乐世界，生活得比最幸福的奥林匹克胜利者还要幸福。 G: How come? 苏：他们得到的比奥林匹克胜利者还要多。他们的胜利更光荣，他们受到的公众奉养更全面。他们赢得的胜利是全国的资助。他们得到的报酬是他们以及他们的儿女都由公家供养。 他们所需要的一切，都由公家配给。活着为全国公民所敬重，死后受哀荣备至的葬礼。 格：真是优厚。 苏：你还记得吗？以前辩论时，有人责怪我们没有使护卫者们得到幸福，说他们掌握一切，自己却什么也没有。我想你还记得，我们曾答应过，在适当的时候可以回到这个问题上来；当时我们所关心的是使一个护卫者成为一个名副其实的护卫者，尽可能使国家作为一个整体得到幸福，而不是只为某一个阶级考虑，只使一个阶级得到幸福。 格：我记得。 苏：那么，好，既然我们的扶助者①的生活，看来比奥林匹克运动会的胜利者的生活还要好，那么，还有什么必要去和鞋匠，其他匠人，以及农民的生活去比较吗？ ①D′πιBH′ρωL，这里包括治理者在内。