Chapter 2 Part Two Can't Be Yourself

Old Xia: Your writing method, the so-called Lu Zheng called ruffian literature by academics, was actually two different things from popular culture before you set foot in the film and television industry, and had nothing to do with Qiong Yao and Jin Yong.Your depravity began when you entered the film and television industry.Qiong Yao and Jin Yong, whoever wants to read and read, can do whatever they want, but they cannot be blown to the height of classics.In fact, your role in the Chinese cultural circle is very strange. You are the "wrist" in popular culture. Your novels present the living conditions and nature of Chinese people in an authentic way, and you annoy the academics. It also angered the traditional ideologues. How can there be ruffians in Chinese literature?There are hooligans like Xue Pan, but there is also the lingering love of Bao's brother and sister Lin.Why do you talk about love in Wang Shuo's novels like this, even bluffing and deceiving.Once the truth is naked, it is difficult for people to accept it, and it is garish to look at.

Wang Shuo: That's why I feel that their present principles are no different from their past literary concepts.They are right, that is to say, a work must have noble meaning, even if it is about decadent people and life, the author's attitude should be positive.Upward, critical.Instead of just writing it out.They feel that the author does not have a clear negative attitude towards this kind of life of this kind of person, so he assumes that you are in the same gang as a dog, working in collusion with each other.At this point, they are asking for the same thing as some executives, and they all have the same idea.It's just that officials use ideological language, they use academic language.

Old Xia: Words are used to convey Tao, and they are consistent, from ancient times to the present.However, someone is now comparing your stuff with Feng Xiaogang.Do you think you are the same as Feng Xiaogang? Aren't you working together on companies, TV series and movies? Wang Shuo: It is a misunderstanding to say so.I admit that I have been nasty, but I don't admit that I am the same as Feng Xiaogang.In fact, this way of speaking itself is indeed the way of Beijingers, but there are still differences in attitude.Of course, I may say that I am thinking about being cynical, thinking about... or something, but Beijing dialect itself has a tricky side to please others, and this language itself has the meaning of pleasing others.There is something shameless about Beijing dialect, he speaks half-truths.As for you, if you're smart, he'll get right to the point; if you're not smart, he'll fuck you up.This is a way of speaking when watching people order dishes.As soon as you hear that he intends to offend, he will immediately turn it around to compliment you; if you don't feel it, he will turn around to scold you.I know that this kind of words have double meanings. In the past, I tended to be mocking, thinking that no one would understand, it felt like I was speaking "black words", and no one would know what I was talking about.Of course, everyone knows what you're talking about.Then, in TV dramas, there is a particularly important characteristic of popular culture, that is, you must please the public, and you must never make fun of them.So popular culture has carried forward the people-pleasing side of Beijing dialect.I started talking a lot on this side, and I didn’t look for any evil intentions. I was just joking with you, because everyone is very tired, and I used this to make everyone feel more relaxed.It ends up being some kind-hearted one-liners from kind little people.In my novels, this side actually exists, but it is suppressed by those mocking words.When it came to TV dramas, there was no one to laugh at, and I didn't want to laugh at anyone at all, so I developed this side.

Lao Xia: "The Story of the Editorial Department" still has something about your novel language, the kind of caricature or even clowning of political principles, although it is not political humor, but Kanyu always laughs at something when he listens .This kind of thing is gone in Yingda's sitcoms, and there are only boring jokes left. Wang Shuo: In fact, the fun side of Beijing dialect later developed into a New Year's movie, before it was a sitcom.Make everyone happy, just like Zhao Benshan, except that the Northeast dialect is spoken there, and the Beijing dialect is spoken here.

Old Xia: Zhao Benshan's sketches are sometimes quite vicious, where there is an explosion, where there is a scandal, where the prime minister is changed...as he talks, he suddenly changes, and his tone is high-pitched, "The scenery here is the best"! Wang Shuo: Now it’s all a formula, what to say inside and outside the place, what to cater to, sometimes throw it out, I don’t know where it goes, throw it to the country, to the nation, to international relations, it’s also possible .Wherever he throws it, he has to say a few nice words, just like what you just said about Zhao Benshan's "the scenery here is unique" or something like Guo Da's "washing the dishes upside down".So I think there is nothing in this kind of ridicule now, just a kind of northern dialect, one-liners for everyone's entertainment, that's what it is.

Old Xia: It's a bit like an American "talk show". Wang Shuo: It ended up like this.I think there will be many people who are willing to watch it, and find it interesting to watch it to relieve boredom.I think it covers Beijing and some areas in the north, but there seems to be no such thing in the south. Lao Xia: I think you made this colloquial language popular in popular culture and found a lot of jobs for many people.If you say this, everyone loves to hear it. Once you have an audience, you will have money, so let's all say that.You first entered the film and television industry and participated in the planning of "Desire", but you didn't write it. "The Story of the Editorial Office" is a special case, and some things are quite sharp.When I got to "Passing the Addiction", I started to spoil myself, and let people change a very cruel thing into a very sensational reunion-style thing. By the time "Love You Didn't Discuss", it was the end of the road, and I couldn't go on anymore up.Feng Xiaogang and the others took over your grievances and spoke slowly, washing away all the thorny and poisonous things in your words. It was originally a bowl of salty and half-salty water, but in the end it turned into a bowl of honey water, and the sweetness is not bad. It's quite moderate, and it doesn't feel too sweet when you drink it, it's quite comfortable.The lethality of your language, the way people think of other languages ​​behind your words, is gone, all you have to do is laugh it off.It seems that mass culture has its own purifying function, no matter how sharp and profound things enter into mass culture, they become mellow and shallow.It's good for leisure, and this is the most dangerous part of mass culture.Don't expect to say anything through it, it just doesn't say anything, just smiles.

Wang Shuo: Sometimes, I feel like language, how should I put it?It seems a little unfair to compare women.Let's put it this way, language itself has no gender, it all depends on the target of the discourse, and without the target language loses its power. This object is impressive, and when it is particularly eye-catching, what you say to it will also appear profound and eye-catching.If it becomes a purse aimed at the public, it will still be these words, but the flavor will be gone.It's not that the language itself has been revised, but it depends on what the language is aimed at.If you speak to it, you will have a sharp edge.If you rush to the masses, you will have nothing.The masses are a very devouring thing.Because the establishment group is huge, it is inherently legitimate.In front of it, everything seems docile, and the things you give him must cater to it before it will recognize you.

Old Xia: It seems that someone in the period of the Great Revolution said: The legitimacy of the people themselves does not need to be demonstrated, not because of anything else, just because it is the people. Wang Shuo: Language is the same thing.I think this kind of transformation has nothing to do with the content of the work, it is a kind of self-transformation in language.At that time, the "ruffian talk" became "Leer talk" when it was transferred to Lunar New Year.The transformation of the language itself is not so great, but because of the different target audience, it has changed from "stinging words" to a colorful and festive one.For fun, to make you happy after listening to it during the holidays... This is originally to add "blocking" to you, but if you change it to say it during the holidays, you will not feel blocked and you will be happy.I don't think it's anything right now, but it definitely or should have some vitality and a certain box office.

Old Xia: What popular culture wants is the box office, and what can take out the money in the pockets of the people will turn it into something. Wang Shuo: But this thing can't grow.Now I can feel that the thing that threatens it is approaching step by step.The kids nowadays, including the kids in Beijing, already have a Hong Kong-Taiwan accent, and this is the entry of a more powerful force—Qiong Yao and Jin Yong.At that time, it was not possible to talk about the popularization of Hong Kong and Taiwan languages, but now it is different, and children are fascinated by Hong Kong and Taiwan dialects.Let’s just talk about Beijing’s "Zero Point Band". They call the arrival of Hong Kong and Taiwan culture the New Culture Movement, which directly threatens the existing way of speaking in Beijing.

The children have become Hong Kong and Taiwan without knowing it.Hong Kong and Taiwan culture is the true root of popular culture, and all the things of old China are there! Old Xia: Those in Shanghai.A pop music commentator said that Chinese popular songs had three peaks: Zhou Xuan in Shanghai in the 1920s and 1930s, Teresa Teng in Taiwan in the 1970s, and Cui Jian in Beijing in the 1980s.I can still see the first two peaks. As for Cui Jian, he has always sneered at popular songs.His rebellious nature can only win the public for a while, but cannot please the public for a long time. Wang Shuo: People are making progress so fast, as time goes by.And you, Cui Jian, are still shouting and yelling, slashing your throat and irritating people to sleep and have nightmares.Originally, Cui Jian sang songs with beautiful melodies, which were very pleasant to hear. Following the original path, today is really the third peak.But this kid is not.You roar, everyone just listens to the song as music, who will buy your ticket.

Old Xia: Cui Jian realized this in the mid-1990s.Everyone loves his "Nothing" and always loves it.When it first appeared in 1986, the song was very shocking. The young people who resisted and confused said that I have nothing.Later, they became well-off, earned money, had fun, and sang for so many years, even Cui Jian himself got tired of it.That time in Shandong, the audience shouted in unison for him to sing "Nothing".Cui Jian deliberately asked: What do you want to hear?The following shouted: "I have nothing." Cui Jian actually said on the stage: "I don't fucking sing."He wants to keep a distance from the public and try to draw a line between himself and those singers who only want to please the public. Wang Shuo: This is where the dislike of popular culture lies.Cui Jian's "Nothing" was originally a very original thing, without intentional kitsch, and the popularity at that time was also a symbol of the rebellion of a generation.And now it's a pop classic! Just like "sweet honey", it becomes the same thing as Hong Kong and Taiwan singers in the minds of the audience.If he doesn't sing, it's right, and if he doesn't let the public have the fun of aftertaste, he twists it. Old Xia: In the past, when it was first opened, the legitimacy of Liu Xinwu's stuff as mass culture was based on serving the people abstractly.But now it is different, now it is more and more based on the wallet, and the large number of people is the legitimacy.Whoever can save a job and take the public's money out of his pocket will be successful.The things of popular culture are common all over the world, and its essence is one.The Frankfurt School was full of anger at mass culture, the secularization of modernity.Industrialization went hand in hand with the mainstreaming of popular culture.Moreover, in the particularly tolerant society of the United States, as long as there are people who go to extremes, they will turn you into popular things through commercial operations and commercial packaging, from heretical resistance to mainstream consumption.pleasure.As soon as it enters the commercial channel, once it becomes a fashion in popular culture, even a loud howl will lose the power to resist. Wang Shuo: There is also a kind of shamelessness in popular culture.For example, Cui Jian consciously rebelled against public interest and did not want to please the public.Immediately, some music critics will come out and say: You Cui Jian is old, abandoned by the times and the audience.Deliberately stimulate you and let you return to the embrace of the public.You stand up for yourself, and they'll say that about you.Ordinary people, if they can't bear his words, they may say: "How old am I, as long as I want to sing, I can still make many people like me. Just wait and see my next one." So, you just make a song , There are many people who like and cheer for you, but they lose themselves and become a tool of mass culture.It has a kind of alienation power, which is quite large, and it is difficult to get out after entering. Old Xia: Are you really out now?I suspect! Wang Shuo: I take the simplest way to maintain my independence.It’s just that you can’t make him like you, you have to let him scold you, then you will know: Ah, I haven’t melted into it yet.If he stops scolding me, I'll be in trouble.In fact, for half a year in 1992, there were quite a few voices of praise for me, half to half of those who scolded me.At that time, I was alert, why do you praise me?No!This kind of boast, either has some misunderstanding, or is not authentic.At that time, I was engaged in popular culture, TV dramas and so on, and I was very excited.So I think this simple method is the only way to keep a distance.But sometimes, maybe I am not so displeased or rejected, but I am becoming more and more unruly, just to prove myself, I will be scolded.With this scolding, I felt that I was at odds with them. Old Xia: Why are there so many conflicts, just go to the TV station for an interview?People have seen you two or three times on some really bad shows on TV, one time was "We Met Tonight" on Beijing TV, and one time you were talking about movies with Liu Yiran, who had just become a director at that time.Another time I can't remember exactly.In addition to you, I also met Wang Meng, Liu Zhenyun and so on in "We Met Tonight".Fortunately, your answers are always not as fake as the others.The hostess asked: "People say that there is a great woman behind every successful man. What does your creation have to do with your wife?" Your answer is not to follow her and praise your wife, but to say: " I don't seem to have anything to do with my wife when I write novels. It's my business." Let's not talk about anything else but TV.Is it really that powerful?So many "big name" writers as guests?Do these people really need to use appearances to prove themselves?And it's still such a bad column?I can somewhat understand the appearance of lesser-known writers. Their reputation is much smaller than that of you and Wang Meng. Strictly speaking, they are not public figures, and not many people know about them.But you and Wang Meng are different. In Beijing or other big cities, it is not too much to describe your reputation as a household name, and the popularity rate is very wide.With this popularity, why go to such a column?Fundamentally speaking, a real writer should not and would not want to go to that kind of TV program at all. Wang Shuo: In my impression, the interview was done at the company Yingda.It seems that at that time, it was just a matter between friends.Of course, I also thought that TV was a very good communication medium.At that time, I didn't write anything, I had nothing to do, and sometimes I went to some messy TV shows.I really had this kind of thought at the time: TV is a thing to maintain fame, and being famous is not a bad thing. The desire to be famous has no foundation, and it is hard to fill it!Fame is indeed corrosive to people, no less than money or power.I like to be famous, I am willing to be famous, and I think being on TV is good for my reputation.Of course, that thought was outweighed by the discomfort of filming.During filming, the makeup artist will make up for you, and after the filming, the TV station will cut you, making you completely unrecognizable.Filming TV is actually very interesting. What TV shows to viewers is processed, not original.Television is actually such an advertisement, telling you that there is such a person and such a thing.Then TV didn't appeal to me as much, and I didn't find it so interesting.Anyway, I had nothing to do at that time, and I had a kind of ostentatious idea, ostentatious everywhere.I remember that there were two situations when I was on TV; one was a friend, and I couldn’t evade it. I felt that I was helping others, and of course it was beneficial to myself.The other is that a certain column has a high ratings.But I still seem to have a requirement for myself, that is, I will definitely not go to variety shows, such as "Zhengda Variety Show", I will definitely not go, I have been approached twice and I have not gone.That kind of program is too dangerous. If you can't answer simple questions, you will become a fool sitting there.At that time, I was engaged in TV dramas, and I had a lot of contact with the TV industry, so I had a lot of contacts on the column. Old Xia: That is to say, there is someone more impatient than you.People have seen the big bald head of Mou Sen, the director of avant-garde dramas, that is, small theater dramas, appearing in the guest seats of "Zhengda Variety Show".Everyone was a little confused at the time, where is this and where is it! "Zhengda Variety Show" actually went to find Mu Sen, and Mu Sen actually went?Mass culture is too powerful, and so-called Chinese artists are too weak. Wang Shuo: In fact, choosing which program to broadcast on TV is just a matter of half and half, there is no fundamental difference, and they are all quite shabby. Lao Xia: When some writers go on TV, people have two feelings: one is that they don’t understand, does Wang Shuo and Wang Meng want to use "We Met Tonight" to advertise themselves?It makes people feel too cheap, and there is no bottom line for being a human being, let alone being a writer.The second is to think how these people's IQ is so low, how can this kind of bad program be used to increase their popularity.You want to shoot me, but you want to play with me in the shoot.In any case, you are a writer, not an actor or a singer, and you will be on TV as a prop for others to play with as a toy for you to hum a few words to entertain everyone.People with a little IQ want to be famous, even if they don't talk about the bottom line of being a human being, they have to talk about some strategies!In addition to being low-key and not talking about personality, only writers who don't talk about strategy will go to columns like "We Met Tonight" or "Zhengda Variety Show" and "Variety Show Grand View". Wang Shuo: Indeed.I also found that indiscriminately appearing on the scene, the loss is greater than the gain. It's not just you who think so, maybe many people think so, why did Wang Shuo come here when he has nothing to do?The topic of this column is actually meaningless.So TV, a popular tool, leveled everything and brought people from all walks of life.In fact, for marriage and love shows, for example, there is no need to find writers, it can find other experts, such as marriage and love experts.Psychologists, etc., you can even find a person who is in love.Here we can talk about marriage and love issues.In fact, TV programs are like children. There is a pan-cultural problem. What should I do if they are too excessive?It seems that it is not only that, but it seems to be more spiritual, but in fact it is nothing more than everyone talking about it. Lao Xia: I often see some well-known people appearing on the screen. In fact, his reputation does not need to be improved or expanded by this thing.In the end, I can only think of evil. These people are greedy and superficial.People like you are smart people among Beijingers, and you are also smart people among writers, but you are still doing this kind of program with a lot of water in your head.Like Salinger, the author of "The Catcher in the Rye", he uses another method to maintain his reputation.After a book became famous, he hid and was not exposed to the media for so many years.Everyone is guessing, why did this person go?Later, the only interview he gave was done by a sixteen-year-old female high school student.It's a kind of affectation for him to feel like this, but his affectation, as a strategy to maintain his reputation, is at least a little better than being a guest on "We Met Tonight".The latter gives the impression that not only your personality has been smoothed out as a person, but your intellect has also been smoothed out.Mixing in the cultural circle and staying away from the media, there is indeed a big harvest of keeping one's body like a jade.Watching other people make fools of themselves on TV is another rare lesson.Mass media is not a thing that turns good people into pig brains or clowns. Wang Shuo: Not only on TV, some popular magazines also published a large number of such things, which made everyone notorious and smelled foul. Old Xia: Jiang Wen's self-confidence in this aspect is relatively good.To be honest, he is an actor and a director, and his appearance rate should be higher, but it is rare to see him appearing in other programs where actors and directors often appear.That time I won the award, the TV station made a program, Jiang Wen should go.We were together that day and said that we would not go to receive the award today, but we really didn't go.Filming a sensational and stinky TV series is a matter of losing points, and it will be even more despised by discerning people to receive any awards.But this kind of hype of mass culture has to pay a price among the masses. After that incident, Jiang Wen also received many criticisms. Wang Shuo: Jiang Wen, as an actor, does have problems beyond his control.People can't help but try to join in the fun as little as possible. In contrast, it is a bit unreasonable for a writer like me to do columns to join in the fun.Jiang Wen has such a point of view that as an actor, he can’t be on TV every day. Although famous actors have many opportunities to be on TV, if everyone sees you on TV every day, they are too familiar, and they won’t believe you any more. Know it's you, not the character in the movie.He may be deliberately avoiding TV, especially some programs that have nothing to do with movies.Like me, I understand that this is a shameful thing, but I still go. In fact, I don’t want to avoid it but I can’t avoid it. I have to go, or I can’t overcome my vulgar side.The more developed the media, the more people rely on the media.Now you can easily spread a message.But the media is overdeveloped, and you have to constantly strengthen this voice, so you feel that you rely heavily on the mass media.When posting, I used to think that I didn’t see the media. If you want an interview, ask questions in writing, and I will answer them in writing, so that I can be sure.Because I am writing something new, if I can’t see the reporter, or my mind will be messed up and I can’t write any more.Later, I found that I couldn't hold back, and it was already uproarious.Books are also selling well.If the media can't find you, they will intensify the speculation on this matter.At this time, you have to meet the media to set the record straight. This is the case in the era of mass media.If you don't know something, you don't know it, and once you know it, you will intensify it.If you promise this, you have to promise that. We are all friends, so you still have to do it.In fact, what is the difference between doing several interviews on the same thing?No.You have only one idea about a novel, which is nothing more than missing a few words with this friend, and saying a few more words with that friend.In fact, it is a wheel talk, said back and forth.In fact, I had this confidence at the time. I didn’t say a word, the book could still be sold, and the media would still stir it up, but in the end I couldn’t hold back and did it anyway. Old Xia: You always mention friends, as if you accept interviews out of the face of friends. Does this kind of debt of favor need to be paid at such a price?There are many things in China that cannot be explained clearly because of human feelings. Because of human feelings, you have to pretend to like things you don’t like, and you have to bite the bullet and do things you don’t want to do.What is human affection on earth that can make people so condescending and use their personal time and dignity to accommodate human affection.Mutual flattery in the cultural circle is mostly out of so-called human affection.But when it comes to substantive interests, the Chinese are the least humane.I think the favor you mentioned is an excuse and excuse.How can a person have so many friends? Wang Shuo: You can be friends if you look familiar.In fact, the so-called friendship between media reporters and public figures cannot be said to have absolutely no friendship, but most of them use each other.Maybe you are right, but you have to get overwhelmed before accepting some dubious media. Old Xia: So what do you think is the difference between your public role, which is hyped up everywhere, people care whether you have seen or heard it, and you as a writer?What is the substance?Your public image and yourself are one.Or is it completely different, or half sea and half fire? Wang Shuo: I dare not say anything substantive.I think writing novels is different from writing movies and TV series, and writing novels now is different from writing novels in the past.Now writing novels is a pleasure for myself, for myself to read.Of course, it cannot be said that writers are free to stop reading Han. To say that they don’t want readers is nonsense and self-deception.If you don't want readers, what do you still do as a writer?Just find some other work to do, which has nothing to do with the reader.But now I feel that writing novels is not for readers. I can show my timidity when writing novels.When writing a novel, you can be a little more realistic, a little more sentimental, a little more infatuated, or you can be a little bit silly and in a daze.One can become less contrived when writing a novel, because you only have to face yourself and be responsible for yourself.I think writing a novel is not about wearing nylon stockings just for someone to read.When I write novels, I write about myself, so I don’t think I can add anything beyond myself.Meaning is like the light of a knife. The knife exists in it. It cannot be said that the knife does not forcibly create light, and meaning cannot be made for meaning.Or I don't pursue this.I'll just sit down and finish this knife, and I'll be done if I'm satisfied, and be honest with myself. Old Xia: If you can be honest with yourself, you will naturally be honest with readers. I am afraid that I will deceive myself, thinking that I am honest with myself, but in fact it is according to the taste of the public.Everything in China is reversed.For a long time, we have been required to dedicate ourselves to the public to be ourselves, and to be responsible to the society is to be responsible to ourselves, so that everyone is very similar to each other, and we cannot find any personal characteristics.Hard coercion can smooth out a victory, and so can the soft penetration of popular culture, and for most people, popular culture is still enjoyable, not so blunt and so offensive.But they are the same in their bones, they all create double-faced people.The novels of Wang Shuo and Wang Meng can have personality differences, but in "We Met Tonight", you two are the same thing, a tool of mass media, a celebrity eager to expand influence, and an actor with low IQ... Wang Shuo: Generally speaking.To write a novel is to write yourself.But it’s not the case with the media. It has a certain degree of performance, and the instinct is to seek advantages and avoid disadvantages, and try to disguise myself. I will adopt whichever posture I think is more beneficial to me.For example, when I appear in the media as a writer, no matter whether it is to criticize the current situation or to promote myself, I must choose a radical, rebellious, and so-and-so one.Because this attitude is not unique to me in recent years, but I have started with this attitude since my early years, so I have to maintain it. Old Xia: In fact, you on TV seem to be quite obedient, at least you are kind and not hostile. The media has a potential softening function. Look cute, whoever you love will become exquisite... Wang Shuo: In fact, the attitude of loving someone was very good in China before 1992. I thought I was like this, and many people would think you had a personality, so they were happy to hear it.I don't think it's unreal to be like this. This is also the real me, a little ostentatious, but not too out of the ordinary.Later, when I was doing film and television, I didn't dare to say too much. When I met people in the circle, I had to lift each other up, because it was related to the direct effect.immediate benefit.After an actor is scolded by the media, the director dare not ask him to make a movie again.Because you hired him, people won't watch the film you directed, and the box office of your film will be affected.So as an actor, you have to be polite to others, and you can't love anyone.Even though I'm not an actor, I also have the same idea. In other words, as soon as you step into the film and television industry, you can't help yourself. You have to rely on relationships, have relationships with the media, and even have relationships with leaders and officials.If you want to engage in this kind of relationship, you have to keep your words to a minimum. Old Xia: How tired!The ingenuity and wisdom of our Chinese people are all consumed in relationships.Maybe once you go in, you won't feel tired, and maybe you can secretly rejoice at the success of one of your own cleverness? Wang Shuo: Secret joy is the fresh energy at the beginning. After the energy is over, the interest will be dull, and you will only feel tired and bored.For example, when "The Story of the Editorial Department" came out, I said at the time that there was a big problem with the script, some episodes were good, and some episodes were just nonsense. As a result, the leader of our crew was anxious when he heard it, saying that you don't value your labor so much, and everyone doesn't want you to ruin your job.If I write novels, I can say that I can't write well. This is because I have self-knowledge.But if you say this about the film and television script, it may immediately affect your broadcast and affect the ratings.The leader came to me directly and said that you must take back these words to restore the impact.In any case, on the other hand, I will arrange a reporter or something for you right away.In the end, I had to go back and make up for it. To the reporter, I could only say that it refers to a creative method. Talking about the mountains is not a kind of contentless, but a creative method, a working method, and it has to be so obvious. Go back and make up for it. Old Xia: Non-individual group cooperation will have the problem of not being able to be yourself. To be yourself, you must stay away from this kind of group behavior, otherwise you will be asking for guilt and making everyone unhappy. Wang Shuo: The more you cooperate with a group, the more you have to take care of everyone's interests, and the less you can show off, it will appear that you have individuality.When we work together, everyone has a different opinion. If you want to find the middle point, you have to compromise and be moderate. It is Mr. Kong who understands this little thing about China and showed us the way two thousand years ago. up. At that time, my relationship with the media was the most inauthentic. I couldn’t speak up about any problems I saw. If I said it, it would arouse public anger and damage the collective.I can only say good things, that is, to make myself more approachable, and even flatter the audience directly, so that the audience will not have prejudices against me, and read my stuff first before drawing conclusions.Also saying how good my stuff is is a merchandising.Now that I don’t engage in film and television, I don’t need to worry so much anymore. I’m back to the state when I was writing novels. Even after such a toss, I have a better understanding of my true colors, and I can do it more simply. . Lao Xia: No matter what, you are still a public figure, and writing novels will not change your public image. Wang Shuo: But my situation is not the same as when I was talking casually in the early 1990s.It’s funny to say that I seem to be very similar to the people who criticized my kitsch in 1995, and I am very similar to the intellectuals in some colleges now. I also can’t understand the young people today. I think they are low-level and uninteresting. How can it be interesting to like Hong Kong typhoon?It's like those academics said that I'm vulgar, obscene, and uninteresting.Of course, I know that whoever opposes young people means that he is getting old; I have become the opposite of history, moving against the trend of the times. Isn’t opposing young people anti-time and becoming a reactionary? Lao Xia: Today's young people are just chasing fashion. They don't seriously rebel against anything, and they don't even worship stars without suspicion.Even those highly educated young men who are a little bit cynical, who are cunning and shrewd, know when to use a knife and when to use a rose, and the new batch will not be so stupid as to be reckless and cynical. .People who like Hong Kong and Taiwan are superficial, but they are always simpler than cynics who are counted in their bones.Skinning one person and buying the latest fashion for another at the same time, the more knowledgeable this kind of person is, the more slanderous he becomes. Wang Shuo: I don't believe that youth represents the future.The evolution of history is not linear, and there will be regression in the process. History can continue for hundreds of years without miracles, and it can continue in mediocrity.These people are mediocre, and the younger they are, the more vulgar they are.A lot of people have pointed this out to me, and I've found that how I talk to them is becoming more and more similar.For example, I refrain from using the word "kitsch", but I am very willing to use it.I don't think there's anything more telling than that.That's what they are.Of course, when it comes to vulgarity, everyone is equal, and it’s not that we can only be vulgar and not allow others to be vulgar.I'm vulgar, and I'm not a thing.When I was engaged in film and television, when I engaged in mass culture, I was flattering, I was nothing. Old Xia: Could it be that you are now being cynical and putting yourself in it to become another kind of vulgarity?A kind of kitsch that proves itself by scolding oneself for being vulgar in the past is just a moment of confusion and going astray. In fact, you are not vulgar at first. Wang Shuo: If you say that, it's a bit dishonest and a trap. I can't get around this "vulgarity". You don't give people the opportunity to change their minds, and even deprive them of the opportunity to realize it.I am still sure of this point, I can clearly understand this point, and I will not say that it is just other people's vulgarity, but I am not vulgar.I have other ideas now.I was involved in popular culture at the time, and I am qualified to say this.Mass culture is vulgar, and it is difficult to make anyone vulgar, and no one can escape the palm of mass culture.There is no humanistic pursuit here.To say that there is any humanism in it to pursue the humanistic spirit is bullshit.It is nothing more than projecting traditional culture and foreign cultures on it to add a layer of brilliance, pretending to be a kind of humanistic spirit. Is the pursuit of truth, goodness and beauty the humanistic spirit?Especially truth, goodness and beauty in popular culture.no.That is a generally accepted secular moral standard, or a kind of requirement and coercion from adults on children, saying that you should learn well and be a good person.我甚至认为真善美这个词组都不能成立，应该是假善美。真丑恶。我在大众文化中混饭吃感受最深了。你要搞美好和善良，你就得胡编，就要愣把人物给他向上提两格，把他的境界愣向上提，使他有种觉悟，面对世俗诱惑时可以有一种光明磊落的态度。 老侠：这是一个修论，一种反讽，产生于大众的世俗诱惑的大众文化，追求的就是这诱惑，反而弄出些出污泥而不染的抗得住世俗的大众英雄或楷模。 王朔：这就是大众文化的无耻之处，打着红旗反红旗。为什么那些报上的人物写不好，拍出来大家也不信，甚至招致反感，就因为大家都有生活经验，都可以观察。除非你真的反抗这东西，拒绝这东西，这种人才是真实的，在生活中见过的，甚至流露出反社会倾向的。但这在大众文化中是不可以的，你一定要和大众文化合辙，才是跟着社会同步走，最起码得是这样。 老侠：大众文化非常有吞噬力同化力，反英雄一旦流行，肯定要变成大众英雄，当年的披头士乐队即如此。崔健是被压着，如果放开了，说不定也成又一个刘德华了。除非有极为坚强的个性和极为清醒的头脑，不，不是头脑，是一个人天真的本能、反骨，才不会被吞噬。被商业操作包装成大众英雄。 王朔：这全看你这个人个体的力量了。我在大众文化中打滚了几年，我现在想离开它，却重新陷入了一个误区，不知道自己是干吗的了。因为你在大众文化里面干的时候，别人批判你，你会有很多借口。比如，基本上我同意你的这种看法和批评，但我们很难，我们有审查呀，有资金的限制什么的，演出也有操作上的困难呀……等等。持可以说出一百条困难，告诉你为什么我搞得这么俗，就是没办法，只能这么俗，不是我原本就想这么俗，而是被逼无奈这么俗，我可以这么解释，可以给自己留一百条后路溜走。但后来，我一出来，就觉得这些借口都不成立，别人说你俗，你就是俗了？你不能说我这东西本来是雅的，后来因为技术上的困难，没搞好给搞俗了，这种逻辑并不成立。在大众文化中，你搞得再好也只是个"好的俗"，决不会好到不俗，"俗"是大众文化的先天品质，就像有人一生下来就口齿不清。当然，我说的这种俗也没有多少贬义，也就是说在大众文化中搞东西没有多少创造性，复制而已，都是这种趣味这套路数，从古到今都这么干的。 老侠：你刚进去时就知道大众文化的先天品质呢？还是后来感觉到的。"咱也是一俗人"不是你应对别人批评时的挡箭牌吗？被别人指责为俗总不如自己先说自己俗来得高尚。有一阵子，满世界都是"咱也是一俗人"，就是想捞钱，想成为大众明星，怎么啦？别吃不着葡萄说葡萄酸，谁也不比谁雅多少。这有点儿厚黑学的劲儿，拿屁股当脸反倒可以保全这张脸。这也是那些大众明星的杀手钢。 王朔：刚进去时我还有自己的趣味，但这种趣味不行，你无法用你的趣味去影响他们，反而你要跟着他们的趣味走。干了以后，我就要重新确立一种趣味，改变自己。久而久之，我发现自己不能接受这种大众的趣味，我不能和这种趣味合拍，就是那种软绵绵的、青春伤感的，至多是"为赋新诗强说愁" 或是哀叹青春不常在的幽怨，总之它的人生是乐观的。但我认为人生是悲观的。我要用乐观的态度去写东西，就觉得我太自欺欺人了，我自己都不信。那种人生是乐观的，你只要积极进取，你就能有一个圆满的结局，你就能使自己过得美好一些。 我不相信这个。现在我不干大众文化了，就可以对自己更诚实一点儿。我觉得港台文化不是好东西，我就要说它不是好东西。但有两种人不说它，有一种自诩高雅的人不说它，认为它过于低级，就这东西，谁说谁跌分儿，它本身就不存在追求，你还非说它庸俗。另一种是老百姓不说它，它是老百姓的一部分，柴米油盐酱醋茶，就是麻将一样娱乐的东西。 老侠：你好像还和歌星们合作过，唱什么歌？ 王朔：没有唱，就写了点歌词。 老侠：大众文化真的是洪水猛兽。