Old Xia: You found yourself in the beginning of your creation, so why did you suddenly turn from "surfacing"...from this kind of low-level romance to the pseudo-sublime, mainstream ideology, and popular cultural fashion? (such as poets, scholars, Nietzsche, Freud) ridicule is on.Your so-called "ruffian literature" is actually very subversive, it is the basic living conditions of the Chinese people, and the lies and shamelessness in it are the basic survival strategies and skills of many people... If you say These things are not supported by something similar to religious concern. How did you get into this state?

Wang Shuo: Rely on reality, the real state of your own life, and the living conditions of the people around you that you hear and see.When I first wrote novels, my concept of literature was very wrong. I thought that literature was fiction, and fiction was telling lies.Of course "soul engineers".theorists.The editors don’t say that, they call this art authenticity, which comes from life being higher than life, the sublimation of art, giving people hope and direction... That’s what the editors talked to me at that time.There is an old editor at the People’s Literature Publishing House who is quite famous. He was the deputy director of the publishing house, and he was also a rightist during the anti-rightist movement. He was in charge of contemporary novels. That’s how he talked to me.It seems to be Qin or something.

Veteran: Qin Zhaoyang. Wang Shuo: Yes.It was Qin Zhaoyang.There is no end to one of my stories.He said that the protagonist must always have a home, but my character has no home. I only wrote about him, and it’s over when I finish writing. I don’t know his home. .Qin Zhaoyang said that this is not okay, you have to be sublimated as a character, you have to give people meaning and so on.What he said at the time seemed to be even more shabby than this, what to create a new man.At that time, I didn't know how to write a novel, but after some advice from him, I seemed to understand a little bit. I accepted this literary concept, which requires a bright tail and gives people hope.But where is this light and hope?Then I can only make it up, the ending is completely fabricated.How to sublimate him?I couldn’t get better from what I wrote, so I had to let him suddenly improve his spirit, remembering that when he was a soldier, he was full of passion, patriotism, and ideals.I also thought about whether I can make him dissatisfied with his current situation, isn't it a sublimation, and finally he thought that he could no longer live like this, he was in a daze, and decided to change himself anyway... It also means that I have an explanation for the readers.But in fact, there is no such thing in my life experience, there is no such thing as sublimation.

Old Xia: That was the prevailing literary concept at that time.When I was studying in college, my teacher would criticize every bourgeois writer. The most consistent criticism was that the writer only exposed the darkness, but did not provide readers with a glimmer of hope.Naturalism is unacceptable, realism has limitations, and romanticism is too broad. Only our socialist revolutionary realism combined with romanticism is the only correct creative method. Wang Shuo: Those who come from majors have been systematically brainwashed. If you find someone like this who has not received systematic training, it will not be long to tell lies.I think if I go to college, study some books, and then learn some methods and techniques from the sanctimonious hypocrites, such as how to sublimate, how to make the finishing touch, etc., I think it may be easier for me, at least there is no difficulty in doing so .So after he said this, I felt that I couldn't write.The remaining path for romance stories is to follow Qiong Yao’s path, find a few motifs, such as Cinderella, Romeo and Juliet, and La Traviata, and then mass-produce them. They really sell for a lot of money, so I may continue to do so. , and finally become that kind of writer.Possibly, very likely.Luckily I didn't have to look for it.I know that I am living another life.In our circle, you can't tell the truth if you want to, nor can you tell lies for the sake of telling lies if you know something. What I have to face is: there is no truth in my written language, you You don’t need to purposely fake it, it’s fake when you say it, and when you speak the truth in the language of this language library, it sounds like a fake.At this time, you can say that you are in a state of aphasia.If you want to speak, you have to tell lies, and you can only say this kind of words, but this kind of words obviously don't mean what I think, and what I want to say can't be said with this kind of words, so I can only use I said it in a joking and ridiculing way. I use this method to let the other party know that what I said is not true, don’t think about it, don’t think so seriously.

Old Xia: Your language contains a large number of political vocabulary, as well as foreign vocabulary that was fashionable at the time. You put the revolutionary vocabulary of the "Cultural Revolution" and Nietzsche of the new era into the spoken language of the slick Beijing ruffian, so your The devastation of language subversion leaves nothing but ruins of value. Wang Shuo: In fact, there is such a way of speaking among us. I think everyone is very empty and decadent. I am looking for this kind of fun... This kind of reality has been ridiculed a lot. In the future, there will be a comprehensive Suspect.But at the time I didn't even dare to doubt it.Of course, now I think that to doubt is to doubt, to doubt fake things does not require great wisdom, and once you see through something that is not, there is nothing.I always feel that if I have the opportunity, if I become a writer who can publish easily, I will write a real one.Before that, I had been fluctuating in language.Some editors told me that the language of serious novels does not recognize my spoken language.I never practiced this kind of spoken language in the early days. I have been practicing a beautiful literary language according to the literary concept at that time. That literary language is so beautiful. I use this kind of beauty to write very poor novels. It is because of the particularly beautiful student accent that I have learned.Of course, fortunately, the editor is also a serious person. He said that your language is not called a thing, so he didn't send it to me.If he had sent it to me at that time, and I followed it, maybe it would be Dalu Qiongyao.My later spoken English was because I hadn't mastered a literary language, so I had no choice but to choose what I was most familiar with and most convenient to use.

Old Xia: People who practiced a beautiful literary language according to the literary concepts at that time would probably have been abolished long ago.But isn't Yu Qiuyu's beauty also very popular?It seems that we Chinese still love beauty, which is called infatuation. Wang Shuo: There is probably another article in my anthology that is that kind of beautiful. I really don't want to include it, but the editor says you should accept it, and let people see your shabbiness.Later, I thought why I couldn’t tell the truth, why I had to make up a story. That kind of stylized writing was not very offensive to me, but I found it difficult and uncomfortable to write.My later writing was inspired by some specific things from the negative side.For example, once I watched TV, it was a TV program made by Su Shuyang and Shu Yi.It's like experts commenting on skits.The first half of the program is a skit, a man and a woman, holding two hands.The man wears glasses with no hinges, and he twitches to say that he loves her, but he just can't say it, can't open his mouth.The woman just waited for him to say it, but he just didn't say it.The two of them just stayed so tired and crooked.In the end, the woman was a little anxious, and asked if you had anything else to say to me. The man was err, and the woman said: Then I'm leaving.Just when they were about to turn around and leave, the two got tired of going together.This is completely the two of them getting bored, just for the sake of getting bored, it's extremely annoying.What inspired me the most was that after the skit was over, Su Shuyang and Shu Yi were revealed, and began to lecture the audience in a serious manner. They said: Look, this is called Chinese-style love.They began to tell everyone about the subtlety of our Chinese people, the beauty of this implicitness, our kind of words that can be said without words... Wait, they talked a lot.I was dumbfounded as I sat there.The portrayal of that relationship is very unreal, at least from what I have seen, I think it is unreal, and such an unreal thing should be elevated to the height of national virtue, which is even more hypocritical.I think, anyway, I think the pride of the Chinese people is often manifested in women in the relationship between the sexes...

Old Xia: Like Du Shiniang, Cui Yingying, Lin Daiyu...etc.From the beginning, women are bold, dare to hate and dare to love.At critical moments, Chinese men, especially scholar-bureaucrats and scholars, are very wretched.The arrogance of Chinese men is only manifested in violence, like Wu Song, Zhang Fei, Lu Zhishen, Li Kui... Wang Shuo: Exactly.It seems that the ones who really go all out are all women.The woman always goes all out first, and the man has to follow or is very embarrassed.Men are always hesitant, always have to leave some leeway, retreat... In the relationship between the sexes, it is this kind of relationship that is more intense, not that kind of mutual manipulation.At that time, it has come to be open and honest, and each other can do whatever they want... What is Chinese-style love, I feel that there is no so-called Chinese-style love.It is Zhang San and Li Si, Wang Wu and Zhao Liu, it belongs to a specific person and a certain person, not necessarily because he is Chinese.When it was time to write, someone had already started asking me for a draft, what kind of draft.Since someone asked me to write a manuscript, I will let my temper come.I originally wanted to write a story about liars, they really set up a company to cheat, and even in the end I wanted to fall into the educational sense, that is, at the end they were sad, regretful, guilty, and so on.But at the end of writing, I couldn't write any more, I just finished talking, so I stopped writing.You can’t make it any further. You have written real things before, and if you want to put in false things, you won’t be able to put them in. As long as you are honest with yourself, you won’t be able to put them in.Finally stop here, it's over.After I came out, I felt very relaxed, and I didn't have trouble with myself.

Old Xia: The feeling of someone asking for a manuscript is probably the feeling you said playing like a big bitch, and you can set up a small torii. Wang Shuo: I think that among those publications at that time, authors were more respected.I don't know if these old publications were strong before.Anyway, my manuscript has been sent, it is not a letter asking you to add a bright tail. From the beginning, no one asked me to add a tail, no one said so.In fact, before this, when I wrote "Half of the Flame...", I gave it to "October", and publications like "October" told me, so this is the end of your story?You have to learn this character well.At that time, I began to feel the joy of freedom in writing.Hi, leave it alone!I can write whatever I want, and after this thing came out, some people even applauded it.Of course, after it was published, the first reaction I heard was that it was not good. It was the readers who read the romance, and saw that it was written by a gang of hooligans?How can you write like that?Your Wang Shuo's novels are not good, so we won't read your novels from now on.Later, another group of male readers said, alas, this is still interesting.

Lao Xia: Your attitude is an inspiration to your creation, right? Wang Shuo: At that time, I felt confident.Self-awareness and degree of freedom are also related. The greater your degree of freedom, of course you can be more self-aware, and then gradually let go... In fact, this is very specific.I was less than thirty years old at that time, in my twenties, and I still had a very simple thing.Now this simple thing is less.I also have this problem now, that is, I want to reason with people when I come up.Is this the case at most people's ages?Because I really think that when people get older, they will see many small truths in life. After knowing it, it is very difficult not to talk about it, and I can’t control it. what happened.When I was young, I hated the way of oppressing people with reasoning, but when I was older, I also used reasoning to make things happen, in fact, I wanted to suppress people.I feel that I don’t have the simple emotional things in the past when I write novels now, and I want to go back to that as much as possible, that is to say, I originally instinctively felt that this thing can only be written in this way, not in that way.Now I realize that a novel needs to be self-written, and it must be written in this way. On the contrary, it is not as simple as it was before I did not know it, and on the contrary, I have learned a lot about it.At that time, I loved to read those very deep and large books, but I was afraid to read them.I feel that once I am swayed by reason, many things that were originally there are gone.This is a relationship I've been having trouble getting right.

Old Xia: The original state of some things cannot be summarized theoretically.There are two types of writers, for example, those like Sartre, who first studied philosophy and practiced philosophy, and then used literature to illustrate his philosophical thoughts, but he expresses it a little better than others, and there are some specific personal life experiences in it.The other type is like Genet, who was also a little ruffian in France, stealing things.Wandering around, taking drugs.Homosexual, and was arrested and imprisoned, his novels are to restore the life of him and his kind of people, to write authentically, and to write wherever they are.Genet's writing experience is very similar to yours. The people in his novels are all low-level people and marginal people in the West, like little hooligans and ruffians.Later, Renet was arrested by the police again and sentenced to prison.It was Sartre and other influential people who came forward to bail him out to the authorities, saying that he was a literary genius.Your experience reminds me of the days of reform and opening up, when there were still many taboos. At that time, the people who publicly sang about Teresa Teng, dared to wear jeans, and toad mirrors were all young hooligans from the bottom of society. The same group of people cut off a piece of trousers.These people are gangsters, they only dare to be the first in the world, and dare to be the first to eat the forbidden fruit.These people didn't intend to be the vanguard of breaking through the shackles, but because no one told them the "reason" you said, and they didn't listen to or didn't understand at all when they were told.They have no sense of responsibility for this society, they live very instinctively, and they don't think anyone can tell me a truth.When this thing comes, I feel good and fashionable, so I wear it.When I put it on, everyone stared at me, and I was very happy and proud.Just a little vanity, pure vanity, and I'm going to get people's attention.

Wang Shuo: At the beginning of the opening up, the young ruffians were the first to try the new trend in popular culture.They don't know what is right, what is elegant, and they look at the fancy and fresh.If you haven't seen it before, give it a try. Lao Xia: This group of people can accept new things without any scruples.Marcuse of the Frankfurt School became the idol of American youth in the 1950s and 1960s because he said that he wanted to be liberated from the order of mechanical integration. The most powerful rebellion is gangsters, prostitutes, hippies, drug addicts...etc Instinctive behavior of marginalized groups. Wang Shuo: I think this is the result now.Compared with the lives of these people, my taste and what I have learned in this industry are already conservative.My vulgarity is no longer so vulgar.So this thing will have a certain impact.Because I personally feel that my novels, which are purely written by myself (not collectively produced TV series), have not been very smooth all the time, which is caused by problems in understanding.Whenever I want to discuss the problem of cognition, when I am at war with myself, I will interrupt many things in the novel.Of course, I can't be so simple now, but I don't want to have a fixed way of writing.I want to do it slowly, or through the simple things of restoring instinct.I want to write something that interests me when I finally free myself. Old Xia: There is no routine to follow when writing novels.When Xiao Hong was asked what method she used to write novels, she answered really cutely. She said that there are various methods of novels, and I don’t know any such things as novel methods, so I just wrote it like this and finished.This answer is more authentic than what Lu Xun said about novels.It's a pity that Xiao Hong died too early and didn't leave much behind, but the few things she left behind are not bad, at least far surpassing the things of Bing Xin and Ding Ling.In fact, the language of your novels, the pan-political language extracted from Beijing’s spoken language, makes the public think (northern people) are what buddies almost often say. The state presented by your characters is not related to their daily life. Very close.There is a kind of schadenfreude incitement behind your writing attitude.Those people saw that there were writers writing about them, and they thought it was a recognition of their way of life.Unlike traditional writers who must teach them to be upward, they must teach them from above.It turns out that writers are far away from them, and it seems that only elegant and serious people can be writers, and they never look at them in the eye.Now some writers watch them write about them. Since all writers write like this, it proves that this way of life is reasonable.I don't know what the original intention of your writing these people is, maybe there is no original intention, but objectively it is an instigation.Only those who dare to face themselves can write like this.Truth is terrible and strange, but lies are light.Behind the ridicule in your novels, there should be bitterness and bitterness, but I don't see it too much.Forget it, it's not easy to be real once. Wang Shuo: Many years after that, I realized that I could not underestimate myself.It turns out that I have always despised myself, thinking that my life is boring, empty, and meaningless. I think I should live a more meaningful life, or even describe a more meaningful life in novels.I now feel that my life is extremely important and cannot be underestimated. It is what I live.I can just write this out. My life is my foundation and the origin of my writing. For me, writing this way means breaking with my false life, and the life of being a person according to a certain principle. farewell. Old Xia: There are a group of people who write like you, such as Genet.There are also people who only write about what’s inside, like Emily’s. Her outer life is so monotonous, she’s never been in love, she’s never been out of the little place she lives in, but her inner life is violent, It's very open, it's really a storm, and the ferocious love and hate that kill people are completely something in the soul.There is also Dickinson, an American poetess, her poems are also completely inner. She lives in her heart every day, and real life is her inner life.She is introverted, withdrawn, and does not socialize with others. She talks to her heart every day, and then turns this self-examination and conversation into poetry, which is very shocking when it comes out. Wang Shuo: Are there such writers who live in the soul in China? Old Xia: I haven't seen it.Lu Xun had something of this kind of thing, but he didn't stick to it.Chinese academics, when they see a group of hooligans written by a person with no higher education like you, and there is some disrespect for intellectuals in your writing, they are naturally disgusted.At that time, there were still a group of avant-garde writers speculating on scholarly novelists, saying that China lacked scholarly novelists, people like Yu Hua, Ma Yuan, and Gao Xingjian, who were only speculating on Borges's kind of profound novels.The labyrinth where the entrance and exit cannot be found who wrote "Cross Garden". Wang Shuo: Anyway, it is very easy to gain respect for the kind of writing style that drops out of the book bag to show profound knowledge. No matter how you say it, it is not easy to read so many books. Borges or something, the librarian is something that no one can underestimate. If you underestimate you, you will be ignorant, cultured, backgrounded, and rooted. Anyone is willing to follow such a profound man. Lao Xia: Your novels bring out your own life experience at once, and your life experience is similar to that of a large number of people. Coupled with spoken language, you suddenly become a writer with a wide range of reading. Wang Shuo: It is also recognized by northerners, and it is useless to go to the south.