Chapter 5 the third part

Bai: I had an affair with Mr. Cai Zhengren. In 1987, after almost thirty-nine years, I returned to Shanghai. I was very excited and brought back many childhood memories.But the most rewarding and far-reaching thing for me is to see the Shanghai Kunqu Opera Troupe (hereinafter referred to as "Shangkun") rehearsed for the first time, a two-hour and forty-five-minute script, which is relatively complete and can be performed in one night. The finished book, when I read it happened to be the last scene of their performance. Cai: Yes, the last scene of the premiere. Bai: Coincidentally, I just went to see it when I heard it, because I like Kunqu opera since I was a child, but I don’t have many opportunities to watch Kunqu opera outside. That was a very rare opportunity to see Kunqu opera.Almost three hours of wonderful performances, the impact of opera effects on me is immeasurable.As soon as the performance was over, I stood up and clapped my hands for more than ten minutes. Everyone left, but I was still filming.I was very, very excited that night. It was the first time I saw Mr. Cai's Tang Minghuang.Hua Wenyi matched the two of them, and performed all the grand events of the Tang Dynasty and the rise and fall of Tianbao on the stage. That feeling is really unforgettable in a lifetime.It was the spring of 1987, in May, I remember very clearly that I was leaving, and I was leaving Shanghai in two days.

Cai: At that time, he didn't want to make public his trip to Shanghai, but he just saw this play, and he wanted to meet us, so he made it public now. Bai: I'm not finished. I went to the backstage to ask for advice. I talked with Mr. Cai, the screenwriter, the director, and some actors about the play, and even took pictures with you. Cai: I was very impressed. As soon as he sat down in our group, he read out a few lines of his poems. When I heard it, oh, it’s a bosom friend. I felt that the distance was getting closer.Since then, we have become good friends.He has a relationship with "Shangkun".I sometimes feel that things in the world are really interesting. If he didn’t know the news at the time, maybe our acquaintance would be delayed for many years. If he heard the news one day later and our show ended, he wouldn’t be able to see it either.

Bai: And I also like it very much. If I read it, I leave, and there is nothing left.I am a person who loves art. All kinds of performances, paintings, music, literature, and when the artistic level reaches a certain level, I am moved. That kind of touch is the touch of beauty.The beauty of Kunqu Opera is the combination of music, dance, literature, and drama, which are four forms, and they work together seamlessly.Such a complete art form, I want to say something, don't say that it is rare in Chinese opera, and it is rare in the world.It is very interesting to talk about it next, and this relationship goes deeper.Later, after talking with them, I was still excited, so I decided to be a Xiaodong, invite everyone to dinner, cook wine and discuss poetry, and then continue.In Shanghai, it was not easy to find a restaurant at that time.

Cai: Our Shaoxing Road was very close to Qiaojiazha on Xiangyang Road. Apart from there, there were not many good places to eat at that time.But when I got there, I was dumbfounded, it was all full.Oops, I guess it's a pity I couldn't find a place to eat on such a good occasion today.With an idea, I thought of the "Yueyou Restaurant" on Fenyang Road, which is run by the Shanghai Yue Theater. Their manager knew us. I immediately called and asked if we could get a table, and he said no problem.I am very happy, but I am also very worried, because this place, as we all know, is the place where Mr. Bai lived when he was a child.

Bai: It is my hometown. Cai: It's called the "Bai Mansion". When I heard it, I wondered if it would be... Bai: That's great, and it's not intentional. Cai: It's really interesting. I'm a little worried, because I'm afraid that he will be emotionally affected by the situation. Bai: I want to laugh in my heart, this is fun. I haven’t been back for thirty-nine years. It’s the first time I come back to treat guests to my home. I’m really happy, but I don’t know if they know, I also do not speak. Cai: He thought we didn't know. Bai: It was a lot of fun, I knew it well, I was really happy.In a small hall, I played there when I was a child, and I invited guests there again thirty-nine years later, and I invited people from the theater world. This life is really too dramatic.I wrote a novel called "A Dream in a Garden", and this is really a dream in a garden.

Bai: Three years ago, the Taiwan New Elephant Culture and Education Foundation, a non-government organization dedicated to promoting performing arts, had a host named Fan Mannong. She had a special interest in Kunqu Opera and often spared no expense to invite performance groups from mainland China to perform in Taiwan.Ms. Fan Mannong is known as the "Mother of Kunqu Opera" in Taiwan.Three years ago, "Shangkun", "Zhekun", "Xiangkun" (Hunan), "Beikun" and "Sukun" (Suzhou) were invited to Taiwan for 14 days , the event was unprecedented. It can be said that in a certain way this is also a Kunqu opera competition.Famous actors of several generations all came on the stage, and everyone put out the kung fu of pressing the box.Mr. Cai Zhengren brought out his best guy, which is a discount of "Welcome to the Image and Weeping Image".Because there are many famous actors, Mr. Cai is "Mao Shang" this time. In that performance, oops, I jumped up and clapped my hands; in our scoring, Mr. Cai's "Welcome to the Image and Crying Image" won the championship that day.This play is a test of your kung fu in Kunqu opera. It is a one-man show that takes more than half an hour for one person to do work and sing. All the emotions are staged, and the performance makes the audience mesmerized.It was a family heirloom of his teacher Mr. Yu Zhenfei.

Cai: This play is a very exciting part of the second half. It mainly describes that after Tang Minghuang fled to Chengdu, because Concubine Yang died, he missed her all the time, so he asked people to sculpt Yang Guifei, exactly the same as her life , put it in the temple.This play is called "Welcome to the Image and Cry for the Image". After Tang Minghuang saw the image of Concubine Yang Guifei, he was touched by the scene, burst into tears, and then recalled it.In this play, an actor sings thirteen songs in a row, and it takes more than half an hour to sing, and there is no rest time. After singing a part, read a sentence, and then continue singing. Kunqu Opera is not like Peking Opera.I remember that when I first learned how to perform this play, I couldn't even catch my breath.Due to the complete set of tunes and cards in Kunqu Opera, the highest tune is often placed at the end of the finale, which creates a big problem for the actors: if you don’t have a solid basic skill, you will be hoarse at the end of the song, and people’s good feelings for you will not be enough. Your hoarseness is all gone.Therefore, it is difficult to require actors to always sing with full emotion to make their voices better and better.It is very important for your entire voice to fully express your emotions through a few lyrics.

Bai: Relying on acting, relying on raising one's hand and throwing one's foot, expressing one's feelings, performing like a one-man show. Cai: Every time the performance of "The Crying Image" is over, it takes me a long time to recover.Tang Minghuang's mood at that time, I was very devoted to experience it. In the end, to what extent did he say: I would rather die with you. After I die, I can go to the underworld to be a pair with you.Now that I am here alone, although there is nothing wrong with me, what is the point of my life in this world.This emperor sings the mood...

Bai: Later, I saw the statue of Concubine Yang and we were welcomed in──all of a sudden, everyone burst into tears, ha──because to tell the truth, the people who saw it were all of a certain standard, and everyone had their own hidden pains and traumas. Concern, all hooked up for you.Many of my literary friends, like Shi Shuqing and Li Ang, are well-known female writers, and Zhu Tianwen ran over after reading it, "Hey," I said, "what are you doing, your eyes are red." The strong man said to me, "Oh, I'm so touched, tears are falling." I remember that at the end of the performance, Mr. Xu Zhuoyun, a famous historian who also likes Kunqu opera, took my hand and said, "This "The Crying Image" was performed so well, I was very, very moved when the performing arts reached this level." Many people were moved.Another friend from overseas said that after reading it, I realized what it means to "remain in the air for three days", hahaha!This drama is a treasure in the legendary book, I think it is a tradition inherited, this great tradition has been passed down from Tang poetry, Yuan opera to Qing legends, and it has been handed down in one continuous line. "With the love of children, send a sense of rise and fall", the vicissitudes of history are mixed with the loss of love, the two are combined, so the first topic is big.Of course, from a historical point of view, you will criticize Tang Xuanzong for his sensuality and deceitfulness in his later years, and his love with Yang Yuhuan is not pure, which is right.But literature and history are two different things. I think writers have more sympathy for people than historians.History is written in spring and autumn, right and wrong, right and wrong are all objective, but life is more complicated, and the real situation in life is very complicated, which is the job of writers.Hong's concern is still the love between Li and Yang. I think the most exciting second half is Tang Minghuang's mourning for Concubine Yang after her death, a kind of gratitude for the decline of the whole country.The latter is that the more you write, the better, and the more you write, the more vicissitudes.To "Welcome to the Image and Cry for the Image" was performed on Mr. Cai Zhengren again.He was there, shaking his sleeves and beard, and he acted out all the vicissitudes and bitterness of Tang Minghuang's life.As soon as he came out and read the two lines "the water of the Shu River is clear and the mountains and mountains are green, win the love from day to day and night", the atmosphere came, it was excellent in singing and acting.I have seen a lot of good shows in my life, but I was very moved that night. It was a kind of aesthetic enjoyment. No wonder so many of my friends were "crying."There is also an entrepreneur's wife who graduated from the Chinese Department. She has read the book and has a critical attitude towards Li Yang's love, saying that it is immoral; moreover, this lady is very strong. She said that she seldom cries, but unexpectedly, Watching this "Crying Portrait", I was actually moved to tears.There is a standard here, historical criticism and artistic touch, she said that artistic touch is preferred.That is, if Cai Zhengren acted well, if the play was not well acted, she would not be able to watch it, so this is the place for performing arts.The words are very good, the acting is not good, and there is almost no skill. This play cannot be watched.

Tsai: Nothing to look at. Bai: I can't watch it. You say an old man complains about himself on stage and sings for half an hour. How could he do it!That night, his every move was a drama, the mood of the aging old emperor, his last emotion.At that time, I'm afraid there are sixty or seventy! Cai: Nearly eighty, because he was over sixty when he was with Concubine Yang. Bai: Look, the old emperor, shaking his gray beard, "Ai—" sighed, your two strokes are really good, shaking his sleeves, "Ai ah", everything is in silence, get up and go back palace.Then a discount is a singing service.

Bai: I discussed it with Ms. Fan Mannong, and it was not enough to play a part. The two-hour show was also performed in Taiwan, and it was not enough. That part is all condensed!To get it out, make it a little longer.Because the audience in Taiwan is very good now.I have a saying, which is often quoted later, I said: "There are first-class actors in mainland China, and first-class audiences in Taiwan." Cai: Let me add to him, I have always had this view: It is not that audiences are cultivated by actors, on the contrary, I think actors are cultivated by audiences.The audience is the water, and the actor is the fish. A good fish cannot survive without high-quality water. It will either die, or adapt to the dirty water and become a dirty fish.Our Shanghai Kunqu Opera Troupe went to Taiwan four times, and the four times were all large-scale performances. The first time was to perform in the largest theater in Taiwan... Bai: Not there, but at the Sun Yat-Sen Memorial Hall. Cai: There are more than 2,000 to nearly 3,000 seats.When I saw that theater, I was dumbfounded.too big.Kunqu opera has never been performed in such a large place, and I am very worried that it will not continue.The audience is too far away. According to my experience, in such a big theater, the audience must be noisy and the atmosphere will be bad.Before going on stage, I thought there was no audience in the background, because there was no sound.The audience hasn't come yet?But as soon as I went out to see it, the seats below were full of people, and it was very dark. This left a deep impression on me.When performing in Taipei, you don’t have to worry about the sound of BP players or mobile phones, there are absolutely none.The atmosphere in which the audience appreciates art increases the pressure on the actors. I think that performing in Taiwan is absolutely about bringing out all your talents, and it is impossible to hide a little bit. Bai: At that time, some Taiwanese audiences flew to Shanghai to watch their preview.After arriving in Taiwan, why is Cai Zhengren different?Audiences in Taiwan are very demanding. If you don’t sing enough, they will be dissatisfied.And there is still a little trouble, the more you sing, the appetite of the audience in Taiwan is getting bigger and bigger, next time you have to "Mao Shang", now this kind of performance is not enough, if you come again next time, I want you to be better. Cai: This is the high-level audience that prevents actors from being casual. If you often perform in front of such an audience, your standards in all aspects will improve. Bai: That's right.Because Kunqu opera has established a belief in Taiwan: it is a very exquisite and elegant art, and to appreciate it, you have to listen and watch it carefully.The Kunqu opera audience in Taiwan has several characteristics. The first is that there are many young audiences, which is very strange, unlike Peking opera.The general age group is 20 to 40 or 50 years old, and there are not many people in their 60s and 70s.This is very promising, college students, graduate students, young intellectuals, teachers, professors, many, many people like Kunqu Opera. Cai: So, to be honest, we have a lot of dramas that have not been performed here for a long time. The reason is very simple, that is, there are not many bosom friends, and there are two books. If we did not come to Taiwan, we would not be able to perform.This is not to say that there are no good audiences here, there are good audiences, but the whole aura is not as concentrated as in Taipei, which left such a deep impression on me. Bai: I think the audience in Taiwan, young and middle-aged intellectuals, we have been baptized a lot. Many first-class Western arts have been to Taiwan and have gone to see them. Ballet, symphony, etc., of course world-class Everything is good, and it raises the level of the audience, but we always feel a kind of dissatisfaction—where is our own culture?Where is his exquisite performance art?The first actual performance of Kunqu opera in Taiwan was in 1992. It was planned by me. Hua Wenyi was invited back to Taiwan from the United States, and Shi Jiehua also went to Kunming. He was invited back from New York and then went to Taiwan. It was played by local actors.It was the first time that Taiwanese audiences actually saw a three-hour Kunqu Opera, which was the script performed by "Shang Kun".At that time, there were 1,400 seats in the "National Theater". I publicized it for a long time, saying how beautiful Kunqu opera is, and I was very worried. I thought that my speech was so good, yes I have absolute confidence in Hua Wenyi's art, but I don't know the overall effect of the performance and the hearts of the audience.Taiwanese audiences have never seen such a large and grand Kunqu opera performance, but they just listened to my words, and I said yes, they will come and see.It's like a bet, my entire reputation is on it. The "National Theater" performed for four consecutive days, and all the tickets for the four days were sold out. I went to see it, and most of them were young people, and 90% of them were watching it for the first time.After reading it, the young people stood up and clapped their hands for more than ten minutes and refused to leave. I saw the excitement on their faces, and I knew that they had discovered the beauty of China's own culture. This kind of emotion cannot be expressed clearly in a few words.Later, many young people told me: Teacher Bai, the Kunqu opera you mentioned is really beautiful. Cai: Strictly speaking, Mr. Bai did not watch Kunqu Opera since he was a child. Bai: No no no. Cai: When Mr. Bai was a child, Kunqu Opera was in decline, and it was the world of Peking Opera. Bai: Without Kunqu Opera, Kunqu Opera is almost extinct. Cai: Almost dying.We were cultivated by a group of "pass" characters. Bai: Yes, I think the greatest merit is to bring back the old men of the "Chuan" generation and train Mr. Cai Zhengren and his group.They are national treasures, and they must be confessed and cherished.But we still have a big, big misunderstanding. The reason why Kunqu Opera cannot be promoted today is because of this problem. It is believed that Kunqu Opera is a high-level opera, only for a few intellectuals, and ordinary people cannot understand it. In fact, it is absurd.That’s right, maybe in the Ming and Qing Dynasties, when Kunqu Opera was in decline, it was like this; like,, the words have deep meanings, so you have to know how to memorize and sing to understand.But don't forget, why did Kunqu Opera rise so much in Taiwan at the end of the 20th century and the 21st century?I think it is very important that the modern stage has given new life to this traditional old drama.Why?There are subtitles, you have no excuse to say that I can't understand.Everyone read and memorized it in middle school, and if you can understand it, you should understand it.Second, the modern stage, its lighting and sound and the entire stage design make you feel that this Kunqu opera has a new life. Cai: Approaching modern audiences, he feels the beauty of vision. Bai: I also saw it in New York. With a modern stage, sound, lighting, and subtitles translated into English and French, foreigners would sit there for hours.Recently I met a French sinologist who translated my novel, Leweian, who translated it. He told me that he translated it into French because he was moved after reading it, so he translated it into French.I heard that there is an English version in mainland China. I don't know if it was translated by Yang Xianyi or someone else.So I told Ms. Fan Manong that the whole book can be performed, and the fifty episodes have been re-edited, and performed for four, five, or six days, three hours a day, and the whole book will be performed.Such an important period of history, and we have actors, "Shangkun" they have a foundation. Cai: I would like to add to what Mr. Bai said, although there are not many theater troupes and not many people engaged in Kunqu opera at present, the total number of people is only five or six hundred, but the artistic value and literary value of this opera should be said It is the highest in China. Bai: Exactly! Cai: This is recognized at home and abroad, and it has long been recognized in the history of our opera and literature. The highest peak of Chinese opera is Kunqu Opera.A problem may arise because of this, people say: ah, Kunqu Opera is a high-profile tune.Indeed, it has a high-brow side.But on the other hand, Kunqu Opera also has a very popular side. Bai: It's very common, everyone knows this.The clowns in Kunqu opera are very important, like your "Si Fan", and there are also many love scenes in Kunqu opera, "The Story of the Jade Hairpin" and "Oiran", many audiences want to watch love dramas.Kunqu Opera has many aspects, it is very complex and rich, your "Horse Dealer" is very popular. Cai: Common and popular. Bai: It is very delicate to talk about the taste of the couple's boudoir. It shows that Chinese people love their wives and love their wives. Cai: When I was young, I heard from our teacher that in Kunqu opera, there are small painted faces, two painted faces (white faces), or big painted faces. As long as two painted faces touch the stage, the audience will laugh until their stomach hurts. Bai: The clowns in Kunqu Opera are important, they are very funny and not dull at all, the audience really misunderstands them.I have always wanted to get rid of this superstition, saying that Kunqu Opera is superior to others, and I say that Kunqu Opera is superior to others.When performing in Taiwan, sometimes the whole theater will be full, and the audience will watch it enthusiastically. Cai: I think it takes time, just like you cultivate first-class actors; it takes continuous efforts to gradually produce first-class audiences, which is not so easy.I remember that just after the reform and opening up, in the university, classmates asked each other, what do you like, said I like singing and dancing, and I was arrogant, and when I asked who said, I like Peking Opera, or Kunqu Opera, everyone laughed, and he I am also embarrassed to say that I feel that he is old fashioned, outdated, and conservative.But now that this atmosphere is gone, that is a kind of progress.In the past ten years, it seemed that liking things of traditional ethnic groups was shameful. I didn't understand it at the time, but that's what happened. Bai: Westerners don’t know that we have such a mature drama, which really shocks them. They don’t know that we had such a mature and exquisite performing arts four hundred years ago, which can perform a play for more than ten hours in a row , I don't know, I just found out recently.So, the impact is huge. Cai: Especially now that we have joined the World Trade Organization, which means real openness, a very deep level of openness, which poses a new task for each of us Chinese, that is, since we are open, we must show what our nation has unique things.A lot of your outside comes in, and I will also go out in a lot. Bai: When you go out, choose your best one and go out. Don’t imitate others. No matter how well you learn from others, it is secondary.Of course you can learn Western music and Western opera, but you are inherently limited, your stature is not as fat as his, and no matter how good you sing, they all sound second- and third-rate.The environment and climate in which you have lived since childhood are different, and the culture is different. Your experience is not right, and your heart is not right. Cai: I derived from Mr. Bai's words. As Chinese, we have been able to preserve Kunqu opera until now. I think this fact itself is very remarkable, and we must preserve it and carry it forward. Bai: Fan Mannong, the mother of Kunqu Opera in Taiwan, is a student of Western music. She is the No. 1 flute in Taiwan. Not long ago, she performed at the Grand Theater here. She has seen all kinds of Western music. We have watched it. Not too many.In my conscience, it’s not that Western things are bad, but what’s good is theirs. If they danced well in the ballet "Swan Lake", it belongs to them. If they sing "Aida" and "Turandot" well, then it’s theirs. Is it theirs, what about our own? Cai: We can spend 30 million to arrange an "Aida", why can't we spend several million to arrange this, I think its meaning is far more than "Aida". Bai: I think that no matter how well you arrange "Aida", no matter where you arrange it, you can't rank other people's. Cai: The scene is huge, and the leading actors are all from outside. Bai: It’s like lending a venue to someone else to perform.Sing Italian, "Ah-", how do you understand, you can't understand a word. I watched the "Turandot" Beijing scene in Taipei, and the Chinese princess frightened me, her mouth was full of blood, and a close-up shot came over, who would die for her.Opera, you can only listen to it, there is no dance in it.I went to see "Madame Butterfly", a tragedy by Puccini. At the end of the song, Madame Butterfly was about to commit suicide. The actress couldn't squat down for a long time.I'd rather go back and buy the best CD to listen to than watch and ruin my aesthetic.The voice of the opera is beautiful, but there is no dance; the ballet is beautiful, but there is no voice. Sometimes you don’t know what she dances. Our Kunqu Opera has songs, dances, and literature.The literature of the opera is nothing, the libretto is very general. Cai: I now feel that a nation wants to prosper. If one disdains the things of one’s own nation, then what’s the point of a nation’s prosperity? Bai: I can't get excited.I once talked to a friend and felt that the biggest problem of our nation is that over the years, since the Opium War in the 19th century, China has been invaded by foreign powers. Our biggest scar is that we have lost our confidence in the nation.The most important manifestation of the loss of national confidence is our aesthetics. We don’t know what is good, what is beautiful, and what is ugly. This is the worst. Cai: Yes, you have mentioned this issue into a very important field. Bai: Look at the beautiful colors of the clothes in our traditional operas. Why don’t we appreciate them.Now the fashion in Europe and America is gray and black, without any color at all.The colors of China are very beautiful, but our aesthetic judgment is lost, what a pity!All the questions come out. Cai: I have a feeling that I have been doing Kunqu opera for more than 40 years. I really deeply understand that some art is very good once you get in touch with it, but after a long time, you feel that it is nothing, and gradually fade it up.Kunqu opera is very strange. Before I was exposed to it, I thought it seemed very profound, but once you step into it, you will feel that it will become more and more beautiful, and it is simply a lot of fun.Moreover, you see, I have sung Kunqu Opera for more than forty years, but when I heard "Dream",... Bai: That passage broke my heart. Cai: Its melody is so beautiful, you can hardly imagine how beautiful it is.Every time I listen to it, I have to sigh, our ancestors had such good tunes hundreds of years ago, this kind of art will become more and more fascinating, and more and more I feel that there is a vastness in it. I feel that I can never finish learning, and this kind of art is really not too much. Bai: I want to say something, in the international arena, the only Chinese performing arts that can hold water is Kunqu Opera. It’s not that the emperor behind closed doors decides it’s good, but he has to use it to compare with others. Cai: I have the same feeling as you. When I went to Germany and the United States, they didn’t know about Kunqu Opera. Once they knew about Kunqu Opera, foreigners would be surprised: how could there be such a delicate art, and they could accept it.Two years ago, I was in Munich, Germany, where I performed "A Dream in the Garden", "Broken Bridge", and a one-man show "Picking Up Paintings Calling Paintings".At that time, I was very worried, how would the Germans know what I was singing alone? They didn’t want us to have subtitles, saying: If you type subtitles like this, should I watch the subtitles or watch you.He only needs to be alone, and he will come out and introduce the plot for three to five minutes. After that, I will go up and sing "Picking Up Paintings Calling Paintings" alone, singing and doing.It's very strange, all the products that are effective in China are available below. Bai: There are many connoisseurs in Germany, they are connected, and art is connected to a certain place. Cai: And there is a kind of impetuous mood among our young people now. Few people can calm down to watch an art patiently or study a homework. He also pays more attention to the practical significance of homework now. Bai: I can understand it. There is a time process.Now is slowly making money, and then what to do?To appreciate art, there must be a spiritual pursuit.I want to have a process. If it weren't for Fan Manon in Taiwan, the few of us yelled and shouted, it might not be a big deal.I believe that mainland China also has people with a heart, and everyone has the strength to unite their hearts.And the government also needs to support them. You can see that foreign ballets and operas all have funds, because this kind of high-level art must not be expected to make money, or to be expected to make money to support oneself, no possible. Cai: From the perspective of the government, they are quite supportive. Especially in Shanghai, our Kunqu Opera Troupe’s funding is absolutely guaranteed. This should be said to have been achieved.The problem is that besides this, which is very important, it is not enough.For example, how do you get more people to appreciate this art, how to improve and promote this art, I mean improvement and status improvement. Bai: For example, we want to perform the full version of Kunqu Opera in the Grand Theater, during music festivals or art festivals. Cai: The most critical and important performances must be performed by Kunqu Opera.In Japan, if I invite you to the theater to watch a Noh play, then you are the guest of honor. Bai: That’s right, you need to wear a formal dress to watch a Noh play. Cai: So for foreigners, I came to China to watch Kunqu opera today, which is the highest kind of treatment that the master gives us. Bai: By the way, I agree with this. Kunqu opera should be sung at state banquets, because it represents the highest artistic realm and artistic achievement. Originally collected in "The Tree Is Like This" (Taipei: United Literature Publishing House) Bai Xianyong has received countless interviews in his life, but on October 6, 1992, it was the first time he was interviewed and also the first time he came to Taiwan for a meeting. Yu Qiuyu, the dean of the Shanghai Theater Academy who has just left office, the following are the two of them dialogue. Tensioning the cable of culture Bai: Professor Yu Qiuyu, who I am going to interview today, is a well-known literary theorist, esthetician, and dramatist in China today.Several books written by him have had a profound and extensive influence in China's academic, cultural and intellectual circles.We are very happy that Professor Yu Qiuyu can visit Taiwan. This time, Mr. Yu came to Taiwan because of his performance and participation in "Tang Xianzu and Kunqu Opera Symposium". Mr. Yu and I formed a bond with Kunqu Opera.The first time I met Mr. Yu was watching Hua Wenyi’s performance in Shanghai in 1987. The second time I met was in Guangzhou. My own "A Dream in the Garden" was staged in Guangzhou. Mr. Yu was the literary consultant of our stage play. It is also related to Kunqu Opera, and it was the third time I saw Hua Wenyi's performance at the "National Theater" in Taipei.I would like to start the interview from here now. Based on Mr. Yu's extensive and superb knowledge, and from several perspectives that I can understand, I would like to ask Mr. Yu to make some remarks to teach us Taiwan's cultural and intellectual circles. The first question I raised is based on my correspondence with Mr. Yu over the years and my discovery from his writings that this issue is also a topic that Mr. Yu is very concerned about.This is the perplexity and difficulty faced by Chinese intellectuals for more than a hundred years.This is how the two factors of Chinese tradition and modern inheritance can be combined?In modern China, however, traditional culture seems to be struggling, so let's start with this performance.This 400-year-old play was presented on the modern stage at the end of the 20th century, and it needs to be accepted by modern audiences; the reasons for this arduous inheritance, as well as your feelings and thoughts after watching this play, please read from this big The topic begins. Yu: OK.It is of course good to start with Kunqu Opera, but before that I would like to say a few words about Mr. Bai. That's right, this is a topic related to the elegance of Kunqu Opera. People want to understand a race, a nation, or a region. On the surface, there are many, many factors, but the last thing left after screening is cultural factors.For example, before the three meetings between Mr. Bai and I; or in other words, before this, the mainland people understood the world outside the mainland. Mr. Bai Xianyong was undoubtedly a very important channel.And what does he offer?What he provides is an artistic way of life.This is more complete and deeper than any geographical data, political data, and many other data.This allows mainlanders to understand how outsiders live, think, and fall into their own emotions.This can also be reversed to show that when we confirm the reason why people are human, the most important thing is to pull a cultural cable. If the cultural cable cannot be held, our personal self-recognition and the recognition of the entire group will be different. It was very difficult.In this sense, I think art like Kunqu Opera is one of the most important spiritual cables that Chinese people have to pull when they want to confirm themselves from hundreds of years to today and even in the future.Of course, this does not mean that everyone must grasp this one, but this one is definitely a very important one.Because this spiritual cable is implicated in the glory and height that our nation once had.But after modern times, we cannot force today's modern culture to stay completely on the previous splendor. If it stagnates in the past, there will be no metabolism and it will be impossible to move forward. Probably no one will hold such a conservative attitude.However, there are more cases where the traditional modernity has been cut off.I don't know what is the situation in Taiwan now?On the other hand, in the cultural circles of the mainland, there are often two extremes, one is the modernity that has cut off the tradition, and the other is a very simple and extremely sad point of view that all glory and splendor have been lost and there is no hope. , certainly the most glorious era is the "past". I think that in the face of such a heritage with such a long history and ancient culture, the basic mentality should be to preserve it in multiple ways.One of the so-called multiple ways is to preserve intact. We need to preserve some things intact, but the survival rate of unchanging preservation in our modern society is not high. It may be only a very small number, just like a museum window. save.And the second preservation is like ours, properly altered and rearranged to make it sufficiently acceptable to a modern audience. The third is to use the "beauty" in it to build some new art patterns, and this form may be a little newer than the art.Before I came here, I gave a special lecture to "Shangkun".I think there is still the possibility of this kind of innovation, which requires modern creators to understand certain Chinese classical stories and cultural backgrounds at that time, instead of just copying Tang Xianzu's legendary book completely.Therefore, the creator of this new script must have some necessary conditions. He must have a certain degree of classical literature literacy and a comprehensive understanding of ancient Chinese society. The last kind of preservation is even more peculiar, similar to Bai Xianyong's "A Dream in the Garden", where the original appearance is integrated into a modern work in a block-by-face manner.What does this feel like?It's as if a room of mahogany furniture from the Ming Dynasty was suddenly placed in a modern hotel, and the most attractive and proud thing of this hotel is this room of mahogany furniture. Compared with this room, other furnishings are eclipsed.Many inspirations and ideas of all architects are triggered from here.我想白先生写的《游园惊梦》就像这个比方，它是一篇非常道地的现代小说，这是一点也不错的，你很难说它是一篇古代小说。它的灵感，它的来源，它的出发点，它的背景都和《游园惊梦》有关，都和对古典文化的感受有关。这种存活方式只有大家才能成功，能将古代和现代交融成一体，这不是一般人能做到的。现代的戏剧、电影及艺术作品当中往往出现一种古典美的断片，这个古典美的断片处于一种特殊的地位，凸显这个古典断片而使之极其美，让现代的一般青年观众能完全接受。看上去只是顺便品尝到古典美的最后一道食宴，由于这种方式的引进，使年轻的一代也慢慢地可以欣赏到古典艺术的全貌，这是非常重要的一着。但是这个艺术作品并非仅是手段或渡桥，它本身即是个完整体。我相信作为一个有非常悠久历史的民族之现代作家，他要完全摆脱文化负载或文化背景那是不可能的。如果说我们要拉回我们最深的情感最后的精神，那么我们民族情感及精神的来源是不可能斩断的，我们有我们自己民族的遗传、背景和许许多多的“根”。如果全盘斩断它那就会变得很造作，而只成了一种假象，不去连根斩断才是真实的。所谓生命的组合就是这样，无法改变。 刚才白先生讲到的问题，看上去只是个艺术问题，但实际上也就像是我们这样的一群人生活在现代，而要怎样去处理生命方式的问题？总的来说，生活在现代而不是个现代人那是很可悲的，但是斩断了自己生命根源的现代人那种可悲不比前者小。 传统文化的呈现方式可以多种多样，这一个人现代成分可以多一点，那一个人古典成分可以多一些。这成分可以完全不一样，但是古典与现代这两者可以同时并存的。最恰当的比例应该怎么样，是无法硬开方子的，因为不同的生命形态可以有不同的组合。 情死情生话还魂 白：对的，我要再请问您一个问题，我们再回到这次上演的来讲。依据我的体验，从古至今的文学作品、戏剧作品、艺术作品能够历久弥新，不因时光流逝而褪色的即是其中的爱情，也就是所谓的“情”。古人表现缠绵爱情的心曲，可从唐诗、宋词、传奇或小说中充分体现，现代人表现爱情，以台湾来说就是流行歌，虽然浅显通俗，但也是包含“情”。 这次我看了，有一个很重要的感受，刚才有一些朋友告诉我，他们是文化水平相当高的青年，包括绘画界、音乐界、文学界的，他们在看时居然感动得掉泪，这个现象我非常感兴趣。是个非常古典、真正中国式爱得死去活来、最后还魂成眷属的爱情故事。今天晚上的观众突然间发现原来中国有这么优美表现感情的方式。华文漪（饰杜丽娘）的眼泪、舞蹈、身段、唱词和高蕙兰（饰柳梦梅）的痴情、憨厚、专注的表演感动了今天晚上“国家剧院”的观众；他们发现了中国人在古代表现爱情上原来是那么美，那么浪漫动人。请您说说这些现象在舞台上是怎么解释？ 余：我想是这样的，在文艺作品当中，情感表现方式有非常深也有非常浅的各种各样，而汤显祖非常巧妙地用了“至情”这个元素，这也表明它的情感和一般的表现方法不一样。这不一样在哪呢？一般创作者把情感仅仅作为是一种表现的手段，或者只是讲个故事当中有一些情感，而汤显祖的则恰相反，一切都为着“情”的目的来考量，情是目的性的，不单是手段也不单是方法。而大部分的创作表现情的方式都只是方法或手段而已。把“情”作为目的性的终极，为了这个“情”，一切情节都可以围着它转，哪怕怪诞，哪怕不近情理。由于它是“至情”，任何观众可以忘却它的怪诞及不近情理而接受“至情”本身。这个“至情”就内容方面是人类共通的，也就是属于我们现在常讲的终极关怀的范畴，而人活在世界上某种精神上的最高安慰，也就是这个“至情”。 刚才我们讲到传统民族性及现代性的问题，我想古今中外真正的杰作虽然它们面貌不一，但它们最重要的命题肯定是相通的，否则就很难成为杰作。而且这相通共象肯定是永恒的，所以古希腊的东西数千年后还是能震撼我们，莎士比亚也能让我们震撼。现代的作品也不能例外，只要有人类在，这一层次的震撼会永远流传下去。而中某些震撼也属于这个成分，也就是人类共通最珍贵的一部分。这种情感至高无上的状况可以生，可以死，可以扭转一切，所以这个情感已经不是一般的情感，它是带有巨大目标性和深沉哲理内涵的，能统摄人为什么要活在世界上这个基本命题。 这种至情再加上中国传统古典美的表现方式，使得出现了非常特殊的美。我们不能简单地把看成过了时的表现情感之方法。它与《梁祝》式的爱情是截然不同的，固然《梁祝》这个故事也不错，梁山伯、祝英台为了爱也遇到一些波折，最后山伯为爱殉情。但这与一比较就是不同的两回事。从来没有一个作者像汤显祖一样，几乎是以一个哲学家的眼光来面对人类终极性的情感安慰，这也就是“至情”。所以它能更久远地震撼我们的心灵，我倒认为最震撼我们的地方已经和民族性没有关系了，只要是人类，他们的情感必有互通之处，这也正是引发震颤之窍窦。 白：您讲到这里，我马上要接下去。前几年到法国公演，让法国人看了如痴如迷，到了英国，英国人看了也如痴如醉。我想这就像西方的《罗密欧与朱丽叶》，就是中国的《罗密欧与朱丽叶》，但我们的故事却让她还魂，不像罗密欧与朱丽叶就从此死掉了，让观众更高兴更满足。讲到这里，我要插一句，余先生是研究心理的专家，他写了一本专书，对观众的反应没有人比余先生研究更透彻了。您觉得今晚观众的反应是否就是他们被拨动了心底深处的那根弦？ 余：我想大部分观众在看戏时，对“至情”部分只能有潜意识的震撼，也就是说这根心弦平常是很少被弹拨的，每个人心灵深处都有这根弦，哪怕是没有文化的老农民甚或村夫愚妇，他们都藏有这根心弦，一旦像碰到这种至情的作品时，他们那根久已沉寂的心弦就被弹拨了。刚才白先生说到和《罗密欧与朱丽叶》的关系，我想到这是汤显祖蓄意地唱了一阕热情洋溢的凯歌。在当时的明代“理学”弥漫着整个社会，而他却不顾一切地提出了与当时传统规范对峙的“情”，“情”与“理”在当时是坚实对垒的。他以“情”统观一切，认为宇宙人类最高层次就是“情”，有了“情”就一往而深，生者可以死，死者可以生。 当然我们谁都不会相信这个故事是真的，但是谁都会被这个不是真实故事当中的至情所感动，所以这个“情”就比那些合情合理故事中的“情”更震撼人心，汤显祖故意用荒诞的手法来验证“情”的不可抗拒性。 白：这么说“至情”是的内涵，但是昆剧很重要的一点是以“美”来引导“情”。如果没有美就进入不了情里边，“情”也就变成可笑而孤立了。 然而昆剧如何成功地把“美”与“情”融合为一？就正如观众今晚是先被华文漪的舞蹈、眼神、唱腔吸引住，然后慢慢地投入进去，这是否以“美”的外在形式与“情”的内涵相互调和？ 余： 先以外在的美引发内部的情，这是具有普遍性又有民族性的特点，就普遍性来说，“情”一定要有“美”来作为它的外表。 白： 哈……哈，我们也不喜欢丑陋的爱情。 余： 因为这是人类对健康美的状态的向往，它的内在与外在一定具有某种统一性。除了极少数作品曾用侧面或反面的方式来表达特例外，一般来说总是有美丽的外表，就像社会当中人和人的爱可能一开始还是外在“美”的吸引。而艺术首先也是以感性的美来震撼人心的。这一点对东方的中国艺术来说更是如此。它首先以感性的美来震撼人，而全面精神的美最终还是要沉淀到外部状态当中。 所以昆曲从扮相、唱腔以文人种种的水磨功夫雕琢到最精致的状态，把情感美的一方面变成感性形态的呈现。所以我们今晚看这台戏的时候，虽然稍有遗憾，但是整体的美是不可抗拒的。 那么由“美”的引导进入到“情”，是不是美引进了情之后就把美丢了呢？那当然是不能把“美”抛弃的，到了最后情与美紧紧地拢合在一起，这即是有“ 情”的美而非仅外表的“美”，也正是人们最乐意接受的。这二者的艺术组合带有很大的民族特色，西方的作品在这方面要求没有我们严格。 白：对，没有那么细致，没扣得那么准。就像西方的歌剧只能听不能看，芭蕾只能看没得听。中国昆剧对形式的要求已经达到最完整的地步。我再加一句，您的论文提到昆曲是中国戏曲学的最高范型，据我个人看传统戏剧的经验，从来没有其他剧种的爱情故事能让我这么感动。像这么让我感动的，我从未在别的剧种中有过相同的经验。是不是昆剧的形式已美到极致的地步，而把爱情糅到化境？昆剧的内涵与形式已经达到这一点？ 余：我想有几个原因让您那么感动。除了形式与内涵高度结合外，更因为您是高层文化人，而汤显祖是他那个时代最高水平的文化人，他能用当时中国最高的文化方式树立这种情感与美的过程，这就特别能使后代的高层文化人真正感动。 我相信这个故事如果给文化层次较低的观众看，那感动的程度一定远不如您，这是肯定的。因为情感与美的升华是和文化品位有关系的，所以无论是情感也好，或美也好，它的升华过程有等级的不同。在一个普通社会，它是有等级的不同，否则的话，文明与不文明就没有差异了。昆剧在当时是最高的文明，这个最高文明直到今天也和我们还有相通之处，所以不仅白先生，还有高层文化人看了都会被感动。这真要感谢汤显祖啦！ 开到荼花事了 白：您对昆曲的肯定，确定它能拨动人们灵魂深处的心弦。您著的《中国戏剧文化史述》一书中，您举了、、为例，您对这三部传奇评价很高。您是否认为这三个剧是能代表明末清初最辉煌的作品，也就是中国的传统已经到了非常成熟的阶段，可以说是快要到唱“天鹅之歌”的时候了，那种苍凉的味道特别余韵缭绕，您是否也有这种感觉？ 余： 以中国戏剧文化来说，这三部作品是充分成熟的作品，充分成熟也就意味着凋谢的来临。这几个剧本可以成为中国传统文人的精神代表，如果没有这几个戏里边所表现的沧桑感、兴亡感、使命感、孤独感及对情的执著、对死亡的追求，严格意义它很难成为道道地地中国传统文化的标的。我认为这是文化精神的大聚会，它们的地位非常崇高。这也有对比，可能有很多戏剧学家会不同意，我这对比方面不比其他，只能与元杂剧比。元杂剧里边也有一些非常漂亮的作品，譬如说；也有非常强烈的作品，像《赵氏孤儿》、等都是非常郁闷和愤怒的作品，王国维且认为元杂剧有悲剧在其中。但是真正能正常反映中国文化形态的，则是跟在元杂剧后面的这几本传奇。 白：您这些话我再同意不过了。虽然我看不错，也很美，但是前面举的那三部传奇，当我看完后给我的余韵却是回味无穷，是其他作品所不能比的。 您这部《中国戏剧文化史述》从戏剧最原始的状态一直叙述到晚近的话剧，您追溯邈远的戏剧文化踪影、背景及流变。您提到中国戏剧有两种表现方式，一种是写意方式，另一种则是诗化的出现。因为我们是诗的民族，而昆曲正融入了诗的美。诗化也正是我们民族的特色，甚至与绘画、书法都很有关系，戏剧更是我们民族“美”的表现。您是否能把中国戏剧这两种的表现方式与西方比较写实和讲究戏剧冲突的手法来作比较？ 余：中国的戏剧与西方如希腊或印度相比，它发生得较晚，而晚的重要原因则是中国的诗歌太发达了。诗的时代绵亘太长，诗与戏是相当矛盾的。泰戈尔曾说：“我写诗的时候不能写戏，写戏的时候不能写诗。”一个人是这样，整个民族也是这样。但是诗的民族也有相当大的好处，一旦当它形成戏剧时，诗就作为戏的灵魂进入到底层。 尽管西方也有比较空灵诗化的，如莎士比亚的作品等，但还是客观的描摹写实与强烈激情洋溢的作品居多。 白： 当年在五四新潮时，旧传统成为众矢之的，甚至连梅兰芳的光芒及四大名旦的声势也躲不过傅斯年等的攻击。这是否意味着一代急迫兴起的新思潮，有时也会淹没审美的感性？ 余：是的，有时为了实现一个主观的目标，为了攻破几个堡垒，会把不应该伤害的东西也伤害了，往往对事情尚未了解就先采取攻击。而且这种攻击演变成一种时髦，譬如说鲁迅把梅兰芳说成是“梅毒”，我想这是非常明显的片面。 白：我们这些二十世纪的中国人一直在古、今、中、外之间踟蹰，甚至兜圈子。我们从事的艺术创造真是一个艰巨的工程，在进行过程中又常常有突兀尴尬难与“美”吻合的状况产生。但是我们又不能弃掷掉“传统”，使“现代”成了无根的游魂。 您认为一成不变的恢复传统是不可能，但怎么将传统与现代调融浑成一体，这也是一个很大的课题。以舞台剧来说，现代方式的话剧是不是已经开始了新的方向？ 余： 是的，新的舞台剧已经开始在着手做了，而且以各种不同的实验方式进行。总的来说，可归纳为两种方法，一种是形态上采用写意的本质，另一种是从精神上汲入写意的本质，但这就更难了解，因为这是更高的层次，这需要对文化有很深厚的修养。在形态上，装点比较容易，现在已经有很多话剧采用了各式各样的脸谱、马甲，还有一些程式化的动作，加入了这些，他们认为这比一般的话剧更有表现力。从精神层次引进的不多，但确实也有剧团在进行。 颤动的手呐喊的心 白： 我们再往下进行提问一些大题目。余先生写了一本书叫《艺术创造工程》，此书在中国大陆出版时造成了很大的轰动，我想它能造成如此的轰动有几个原因。中国大陆一下子出现了一本概括美学与文学理论且具有突破指引性的书，在各理论诸家著作缤纷杂呈之下，《艺术创造工程》一出还是放出了光辉。我们看了此书后，更肯定知道文学的本质是该如此。余先生用属于他自己非常独特的语码、非常绮美的文字，优雅地将感性与理性结合起来。这虽然是一本理论性的书，但因为它的文字圆柔不生涩，很容易就让读者登入文学的殿堂之中。这是非常不容易的，它的确是引领我们进入美哉殿堂的功臣。 我现在就从这本书提出几个问题。《艺术创造工程》分四章。第一章叫《深刻的遇合》，这是个楔子，我想余先生自己是一位创作家，所以他对从事创作的人有一种深切的同情，因为他同时也是一位实践家，能体验到创作的艰辛和神秘，创作之中是有几分神秘的。第二章《意蕴的开掘》，它讲到文学大致可分内容及形式，这一章讲的是内容方面。第三章《形式的凝铸》讲文学的各种形式怎么去表现内容。第四章是结论《宏观的创造》。看了这本书后，我受益很大，很多我自己在创作时没有想到的东西，余先生都提出来观照一番，这对我的启发很大。 我想和余先生谈一谈书上这些。在《意蕴的开掘》这章，您提到“人生况味”这四个字，人生有各种不同的遇合，不同的解释。在文学中能够表现“人生况味”的您都给它很高的评价，我希望听听您的意见。 余： 我看过许多文学艺术作品，它们之所以不好之所以没救，有一个非常重要的原因，是因为它们离开了艺术的本位，这不一定只是指外在的形式。以内容而言，首先它的出发点就错了。在一部作品中，如果只是讲社会学上或军事学上甚或法律、道德上的问题，就往往使得作品板滞、僵化而流于贫薄，这些都是不对的，它们不能成为一部好作品。在经验许多不成功的作品之后作比较，再回头看古今中外所有成功的作品，它们最动人之处就是写出人生的况味，品尝出人生的味道。 再譬如说，您可以作多种解释，你说它是影射历史也好，您说它提供好多社会学上的东西也是，但是它最打动我们的却是“人生”这个大主题。所以我相信不管艺术发展到什么程度，它的中心命题永远离不开人生。在作品里如果只是提出了社会学上或政治学上的问题，大多数的观众、读者是无法认同的，唯一有一点能和所有的读者及观众认同的即是“人生”。 世界上有好多东西都是可以分工的，有些东西我们可以交给法学家，有些东西可以交给科学家，有些可以交给社会学家，唯独把“人生”的问题交给我们的作家。当然哲学家也研究人生，但是哲学家研究的人生是对人生的理性概括；而艺术家研究的人生是自己和别人去品味人生。我讲的“况味”就是指这个意思，用品味、品尝来贴近人生。当时我提出这些观点时好像有些冒险，因为我有的作品还不是那么多，但是据我看只要是不好的作品、没救的作品，都是在“人生”这个关目上栽跟头。 再譬如说，作品里写一场历史上有声有色的大战，不管哪个胜哪个负，把战争描述得多么激烈也不会是一部好作品，再紧张再有悬念也不会是一部好的艺术作品。只有把作战这两方面的将军作为非常普通的人，而看这一场战争在他们的人生过程及人生架构当中起了多大的作用，然后看他们在度完这生后留下些什么迹印，这场战争和他的妻子及他的家人之间的关系产生怎样的周旋、波折，或是在他的人生色彩上增添了什么。能写出这些才能算有价值。如果不能进入到这一点，哪怕是从表层看起来写得非常辉煌，那也不能算是有深度了不起的作品。有非常大量的艺术作品可支持我上面的观点；这当然不是我自己的写作经验，这些都是我的阅读经验和观看经验。 白：您举了好多的例子，不光是文学还有电影、戏剧等，我非常同意您的看法。在您的《艺术创造工程》第三章《形式的凝铸》中，您曾提到这几十年来我们的新文学新文艺，很遗憾地往往忽视了意蕴与形式紧密结合的重要性。 余：如果一件文学或艺术作品不能把它要表露出来的东西变成有效的形式时，那么我觉得它就还没有资格称为一件艺术作品。就我了解所及，以白先生的小说为例，您肯定是把这两件事串联在一起。当你尚未肯定掌握形式时，那么你的意念根本无法进入到创造。 “形式”不仅仅是指情节或语法，就以您的小说《永远的尹雪艳》为例。穿着一袭白衣的尹雪艳永远不老，时间这个杀手不能在她身上留下任何烙痕，“天若有情天亦老”，她因为“无情”所以不老，因为她的无情反衬出其他众多生而“有情”的脆弱，这中间也陪衬出一整段的历史沧桑。像这样的作品不可能在没有“人”这样的形象中被凝铸；又举一个例子来说，我认识许多有名的导演，当他们进入导戏时，脑中首先出现一个场面，然后再分析这个场面如何化解而衔接它的前因及后果。白先生的小说也是这样的，他不是从意念出发进入创造，而是从一种形式感觉出来。 其实内容方面，尤其是人类的内容有好多是重复的，太阳底下已经少有新鲜事了。有一位法国女作家曾说过：人类到了十八世纪十九世纪初，一切最重要的问题都已经写光了，很难再创造些什么更新的题目；我们总是在写人类永久性的问题，因此非常重要的一点，就是要寻找出一个极其美的形式来表现人类永恒性的共象。 白：余先生学贯中西，他对西方的作品也有很深刻的研究。 有个现象在台湾一九六○年代发生过，一九八○年代在大陆又兴起，就是西方的现代主义文学、戏剧、艺术、音乐作品等对中国文化界发生很大的冲击；而台湾在一九六○年代，我们这一辈的人已受过它的洗礼。那时候有人说我们是受到欧风美雨的沾溉而产生崇洋心态，但我却认为不是，如果是崇洋那也只有一个很短的时期，我们之所以认同而形成风尚，是因为现代主义对我们当时的心态有一种很深的契合。在一九八七年我到中国大陆去访问时，我发现我们以前走过的道路，如今中国大陆的学界也如痴如狂地在履践。请您就这个问题，把您研究所得告诉我们。 余：了解现代派甚至普及现代派对中国大陆是需要的，且是件好事而绝不是一件坏事。我认为文学也好，艺术也好，最后那些问题都是人类共通的，所以人类在往前走的过程当中，无论文学或艺术只要有新的推进新的表现，任何一个健全的民族都不应该对它们陌生。一个对异邦同行非常重要的步伐完全感到陌生的民族，在现代这种日新月异的环境中，是不可能有健全的文学和艺术产生的。开阔的胸襟、辽远的视野是必须的，有了广角的国际视野后，才能更确定我们自己的文化方位，能全盘了解国际上的脉动，才能发挥我们自己的真正魅力。 就这一点我可以举个例子，在上海外面长江口上有个崇明岛，我曾经去玩过。里面有好多好多老人一辈子没有离开过这个岛，他们对岛上的一草一木了如指掌。另有一批人，则漂洋过海，去到岛外的大千世界之中，他们甚至还遍访了许多与家乡岛屿相仿佛的其他岛屿。那么试问，这两种人中，究竟哪一种更能把握和述说小岛的真实情况呢？初一看，是前一种人，他们不是为之而耗尽终生了吗？前一种人说的有关这个小岛的种种情况，未必有什么伪诈之处，却很有可能与岛外情况相雷同。他们会说这个岛上春华而秋实，夏炎而冬寒。诚然这也可说是真实，但不是真实的发现，说了半天，这个小岛的真实情况，还是令人惘然。后一种人则不同了，他们会指给你看只属于这个小岛而不属于其他地方的一切，对于那些处处皆有的事物，他们也能揭示出在这个小岛上的特殊组接方式，人们只能从这样的述说中发现这个小岛，把握住它的真实。 所以我们了解自己的中国文化也就像这样，要了解真正的中国传统是什么，必须先要知己知彼，了解最新的国际脉动、国际视野。我曾看过一些完全不了解国际文化的人来谈论中国文化，那简直不知所云，说来说去总是那几个老词汇，这几个老词汇套在任何一个国家中都是一样而且是重复的。所以身在庐山是看不见庐山，只有跳出庐山外才能“横看成岭侧成峰”。这二者是相互矛盾的；所