Chapter 37 Conversation with Montgomery[1]

(May 27, 1960) Montgomery: Could you tell me a little bit about your view on the state of the world today? Mao Zedong: The international situation is very good, there is nothing bad, it is nothing more than the world's anti-Soviet and anti-China. Meng: This is very bad. Gross: It's made in America, not bad. Mon: But it's bad. Mao: It's not bad, it's good.If they did not oppose us, we would be the same as Eisenhower and Dulles[2], so logically they should oppose it.They do this intermittently.Last year it was anti-China, and this year it was anti-Soviet. Meng: That was done by the US, not the UK.

Chairman Mao: It is mainly the United States, which also incites its lackeys in various countries to do so. Meng: So I think the situation is bad. Chairman Mao: In my opinion, the current situation is neither hot war breakup nor peaceful coexistence, but the third kind: cold war coexistence. Meng: Here lies the difficulty.Getting along in the Cold War was difficult. Chairman Mao: We will solve this problem. Mon: We have to find a solution. Chairman Mao: But we must make preparations in two aspects.One is to continue the Cold War, and the other is to turn the Cold War into peaceful coexistence.So you do transformational work, we welcome it.

Meng: Yes.I don't think we can live with this tension.Our kids grew up with the Cold War, and it's bad for kids.So we have to turn this situation into peaceful coexistence.I don't want to see my kids grow up thinking the world has to have tension all the time. Mao: This requires analysis.The Cold War had a good side and a bad side.The downside is that it has the potential to turn into a hot war. Meng: It is possible. Mao: The bright side is that it is possible to turn to peaceful coexistence. Meng: This cannot be called the benefit of the Cold War. Chairman Mao: We say it is beneficial, because the United States creates tension and creates more people who oppose it. For example, in South Korea, Japan, Turkey and Latin America, many countries are against American control.This is caused by the Americans themselves.

Mon: I'm not sure that the United States created its opponents in the Western bloc, it didn't happen in the Western bloc, although I hope it did. Chairman Mao: I don't mean Europe. Europe is relatively peaceful.I am a guide for North Korea, South Vietnam, Japan, Turkey, Cuba and other Latin American countries and Africa.Africa can't just blame the United States, it must first blame the European colonialists.However, the United States will take the place of the European colonialists there.So I say the good side is to turn these countries against US imperialism.This is shaking the foundations of the entire capitalist world.

Meng: The leader of the Western world is the United States. Now Western countries are afraid of being led into war by this leader. This is a very strange phenomenon.Because in the last two world wars, the United States waited until the middle of the war to get involved.But now Western countries are afraid that the United States will bring them into war.We have to change the situation: now the situation is that the leaders of the Western bloc and the two largest countries of the Eastern bloc cannot agree at all.For this reason, American leadership in the West is viewed with suspicion. Mao: As long as the leadership of the United States is not weakened and strengthened by Britain and France, it is impossible to change the situation.

Meng: I believe that such a situation will inevitably arise. Mao: You are British, you have traveled to France, you have been to the Soviet Union twice, and now you have come to China.Is it possible that Britain, France, the Soviet Union, and China will reach consensus on some major international issues? Meng: Yes, I think it is possible.But Britain and France would be afraid to do so because of the leadership of the United States. Mao: Take your time.We hope that your country will be stronger, that France will be stronger, and that you will have a greater right to speak, so that things will be easier to handle, and the United States, West Germany, and Japan will be restrained.

Threatening you and France are the United States and West Germany, and Japan in the Far East.It is also these three countries that threaten us.We do not feel that Britain is a threat to us, nor that France is a threat to us.The threats to us are mainly from the United States and Japan. Meng: I think it is very important, in this very complicated situation, which step should we take first? I think the first step is to withdraw all foreign troops from the territory of other countries. This will take time. Chairman Mao: It is mainly the influence of the United States, some in Europe and some in Asia.Britain had only four divisions in Germany.

Meng: There are only three. Chairman Mao: The United States has 1.5 million troops and 250 military bases abroad, including in West Germany, Britain, Turkey, and Morocco.In the East, the United States has military bases in Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, and the Philippines; the United States also has military personnel in South Vietnam, and air bases in Thailand and Pakistan. Meng: The main issue is that everyone should go back to their home countries.We can reduce tensions if we can do two things: first, stop the military occupation of Europe; and second, resolve the Taiwan issue.Problems can only come one by one.

Mao: But the people are doing it.The people of South Korea, Japan, and Turkey are all demonstrating.There has just been a coup in Turkey[3], so it cannot be said that it was done by the Communist Party. M: It's no good trying to do everything at once.I'm a soldier and I understand that.You are a soldier too, and you should know that too. Chairman Mao: You have thirty-five years of military service, you are older than me, and I am only twenty-five years old. Meng: I have fifty-two years. Chairman Mao: But I am still the chairman of the Communist Party’s Military Committee. Mon: That's fine.I have read your book on the military and it is very well written.

Mao: I don't think there is anything good about it.I learned it from you.You have studied Clausewitz [4] and so have I.He said war was a continuation of politics in another form. Meng: I also learned from Genghis Khan[5], he emphasized mobility. Chairman Mao: Haven't you read "Sun Tzu's Art of War" written by our country two thousand years ago? There are some good things in it. Meng: Did you mention more military principles? Chairman Mao: There are some good principles. There are thirteen articles in total. Meng: We should go back to the present from two thousand years ago.

Do you agree or disagree, after I return to London, I will mobilize world public opinion on the two major issues of ending the military occupation in Europe and resolving Taiwan? Do you agree to start with these two issues? Mao: Well, I agree. Meng: I can make America very difficult. Chairman Mao: There are also two things here: one is that you do this; the other is that Americans are very conceited and they will not give up an inch of land. Meng: I can make America very difficult. Mao: It is possible. Meng: I am very familiar with Americans. I have many friends in the United States. Their views are the same as mine. Chairman Mao: Our policy is also to make things difficult for the United States. Meng: In the United States, I have many friends who would agree with me.Many powerful press people would agree with me.I have never tried to embarrass America in the past, and I think I will embarrass it now. Chairman Mao: The United States is very passive now.There are hundreds of nooses binding the United States, and it has two hundred and fifty military bases abroad. MON: I think it's time to tell the Americans some hard truths. Mao: Half of the U.S. military is tied up on bases.It has 3 million troops, of which 1.5 million are overseas, including in your UK and Taiwan, China.We do not have a military base or soldiers abroad. M: Chairman, do you agree or disagree with the few principles that the United States should abide by that I discussed with Zhou Enlai? That is: first, the United States should recognize Taiwan as part of China; second, the United States should withdraw from Taiwan; third, Taiwan should The issue should be negotiated between China and Chiang Kai-shek. Mao: I know, and I agree.We don't want to use war with the United States to solve problems.It is different with Chiang Kai-shek, but if he does not use force, we do not use force either. Meng: I agree with that. Mao: The United States has stated its willingness to resolve international issues through peaceful negotiations without the use or threat of force.Whether its words are reliable is still an assumption, and we have to wait and see.But Chiang Kai-shek did not make such a statement. He opposed negotiations with the Chinese Communist Party, and we have long stated that we are willing to negotiate with Chiang Kai-shek to solve the problem. Meng: Do you know Chiang Kai-shek? Chairman Mao: He is an old friend of mine, how could I not know him? Chiang Kai-shek came to power with our help.Before he came to power, we dealt with Sun Yat-sen. Meng: Did Chairman Mao and Chiang Kai-shek cooperate during the Anti-Japanese War? Mao: The Anti-Japanese Cooperation lasted eight years.Later he cooperated with the United States to attack us. In the past you Britain had an alliance with Japan against Tsarist Russia.At that time, the Far East was your world, and China was mainly your sphere of influence.When did this situation change? It started to change during the First World War.After World War II, you can no longer control Japan, and the United States will control it.Britain also concluded a gentleman's agreement with the United States, ceding China to the United States.This is what Mrs. Cripps told me when she arrived in Yan'an.She said that on the China issue, the UK has no say.Since then, the Chinese people's hatred for Britain has disappeared, and the Chinese people's hatred has turned to the United States.After Japan surrendered, there were 90,000 American troops in China. Meng: But the hatred in the past was directed at Britain. Chairman Mao: In the past, it was against Britain, but it was also against Japan. Meng: We used to be the worst foreign devils. Chairman Mao: In the past there was also Japan, and later it became Japan and the United States. Meng: Do you oppose the United States because the United States sent General Marshall[6] to China to interfere in China's internal affairs? Chairman Mao: It was only with the help of the United States that Japan took over half of China.Japan has no iron, no oil, and very little coal.These three things are sent to Japan continuously by the United States.However, the United States fostered a power, but caused a Pearl Harbor incident[7]. Meng: You are not afraid of Japan today, are you? Chairman Mao: I am still a little afraid, because the United States supports Japanese militarism. M: Japan is a highly organized industrial country. Mao: The main base of the United States in the East is Japan.On the 19th of this month, Japan forcibly passed the military alliance treaty with the United States in the Diet[8]. Meng: Does Japan have any bad intentions towards China? Mao: I think there are. Meng: What kind of intention? Chairman Mao: Of course, it is mainly the United States.The Japan-U.S. treaty included China's coastal areas in the scope of the Far East as interpreted by Japan. I have read the memoirs of Aiden[9].He talked about the Suez issue, the Egyptian issue, and the Iranian issue, as well as the Southeast Asian Treaty Organization[10] issue.He said that when the United States was organizing the Southeast Asia Treaty Organization, Britain wanted India to join, but the United States firmly opposed it.The United States said that if Britain wanted India to participate, the United States wanted Chiang Kai-shek and Japan to participate. Mon: India will not participate. Mao: At that time, Eden wanted India to participate in dealing with the United States.Eden said in his memoirs that he could not figure out how Chiang Kai-shek could be compared with Nehru[11]. Meng: I have an interesting question I want to ask the Chairman: It will take about 50 years for China to get everything done. People’s lives will be greatly improved, housing problems, education problems and construction problems will be solved. At that time, what do you think the future of China will be? Chairman Mao: In your opinion, we will invade at that time, isn’t it? Mon: No, at least I hope you don't. Chairman Mao: You are afraid that we will invade. Meng: I think that when a country becomes strong, it should be careful not to invade.Just look at America. Chairman Mao: Yes, quite right, you can also take a look at Britain.Before World War I, the most powerful country in the world was the British Empire.One hundred and eighty years ago, the United States was only a British colony. Meng: The lesson of history is that when a country is very powerful, it tends to invade. Chairman Mao: If you want to invade outside, you will be beaten back.Is North America under Washington [12] stronger, or the British Empire stronger? However, Washington used a few rotten guns and fought for eight years to drive the British Empire back. Mon: The American Revolution was a good thing.Revolutions are often a good thing.If it weren't for the American Revolution, Canada wouldn't be where it is today.The revolution in China is also good.So revolution can be good. Mao: You are very enlightened! Meng: I am a soldier. Chairman Mao: A foreign country is a place where foreigners live. Others are not allowed to go there. They have no right and no reason to force their way in. Mon: I agree. Chairman Mao: If you go, you will be driven away. This is a lesson from history. Meng: What will be the fate of China in fifty years? At that time, China will be the most powerful country in the world. Mao: Not necessarily.Fifty years later, China's fate is still 9.6 million square kilometers.There is no God in China, there is a Jade Emperor.Fifty years later, the area under the jurisdiction of the Jade Emperor is still 9.6 million square kilometers.If we occupy an inch of other people's land, we are the invaders.In fact, we are the invaders, and the United States still occupies our Taiwan.But the United Nations gave us a title, calling us "aggressors".You are talking to an "aggressor", do you know that? There is an "aggressor" sitting opposite you, are you afraid? Meng: Before the revolution, you were invaded by us. Chairman Mao: There was in the past, but now that kind of hatred is gone, only a little tail is left.As long as your government improves its attitude a little, we can establish formal diplomatic relations with you and exchange ambassadors. Mon: I hope so. Chairman Mao: If Britain, France, the Soviet Union and China can get closer, things will be better. Meng: I would like to see this happen. Chairman Mao: Why don't you improve your attitude a little bit? The basic problem has been solved. You have no formal diplomatic relations with Taiwan. You agree that the Beijing government represents China. You have already done the basic things.Only individual issues remain, which are: 1. Stand with the United States when the United Nations discusses the issue of Chiang Kai-shek's representation; 2. You still have a consulate in Taiwan; 3. Your government is more pro-Taiwan and alienated from China. Many people from Chiang Kai-shek traveled from Taiwan to London and were received by your Ministry of Foreign Affairs. In addition, you also stand with the United States on the Tibet issue.A rebel from Tibet came to London and was interviewed by the head of your Foreign Office. Meng: I don't know.Tibet is within China. Chairman Mao: You are unaware of many things that your Ministry of Foreign Affairs does.So it seems to me that we cannot easily give formal representation to the UK, we cannot formally exchange ambassadors with the UK. Meng: It takes time and waiting. Mao: You only need to improve your attitude a little, and our relationship will improve. Meng: I think the question you mentioned about Britain, France, Russia and China is very interesting.I knew Macmillan[13] and de Gaulle[14] very well.De Gaulle has asked me to meet him in Paris next month, and I will tell him this.De Gaulle was a nice guy. Mao: We have two feelings about de Gaulle: first, he is not bad; second, he has shortcomings. Meng: Everyone has shortcomings. Chairman Mao: He is not bad because he has the courage to fight for independence from the United States.He does not fully listen to the baton of the United States, he does not allow the United States to establish an air base in France, and his army is commanded by him instead of by the United States. M: The same goes for the Navy. Chairman Mao: The French fleet in the Mediterranean was originally commanded by the United States, and now he has also taken back the command.We all appreciate these points. On the other hand, his shortcomings are great.He put half his army in Algeria for war, so that he was bound hand and foot. M: De Gaulle would say that Algeria is a province of France, and legally De Gaulle was right to say so. Chairman Mao: The Algerians do not agree, they demand independence. Meng: That's the trouble, so it has to be solved.But legally Algeria is a department of France.This problem must be solved. Mao: The Algerian issue should be resolved.The Algerians told me that France has 900,000 troops in Algeria. I don't think there are so many, about 500,000 to 600,000.Every day, every month, every year, France spends a lot of military money in Algeria, which is not good for France. Meng: This problem must be solved. Mao: It must be resolved.The French army can't fight, and they couldn't beat Ho Chi Minh[15] troops in Vietnam. Meng: This problem must be solved. Mao: They played in Algeria for six years.At the beginning there were only 3,000 guerrillas in Algeria, but now they have grown to an army of 100,000. Meng: This problem must be solved.De Gaulle's status depends largely on whether he can solve this problem, and if he can't solve it, he may be forced to step down. Chairman Mao: It will also determine whether he can have equal rights in Europe with Britain and the United States. Mon: He already got it.He used to insist on this. Chairman Mao: Not exactly, Americans don't do it.We were delighted to see Macmillan's visit to France, and Charles de Gaulle's visit to London, to be received with great pomp.We hope that your two countries will cooperate. M: Macmillan is probably the best political leader in the Western world. Mao: Maybe.At least he was better than Eisenhower. M: Who would be better than him? I mean in the western world. Mao: We want Britain to be stronger. Mon: He's the smartest and most honest guy in the Western bloc. Chairman Mao: People can see that he is more methodical. Meng: My measure of a political leader is whether he will sacrifice his principles for the sake of status.Do you agree or disagree with such a standard? A leader is not a good person if he sacrifices his principles in order to achieve high status. Chairman Mao: My opinion is that a leader should be the spokesman for the vast majority of people. Meng: But he can't sacrifice his principles! Mao: This is the principle, he should represent the wishes of the people. Mon: He must lead the people to do what is best for them. Chairman Mao: He must be for the benefit of the people. Mon: But people don't always know what's best for them, and leaders have to lead them to do what's best for them. Chairman Mao: The people understand things.Ultimately, it is the people who decide.It was because Cromwell[16] represented the people that the king was compelled to make concessions. M: Cromwell only represents a minority. Chairman Mao: He represented the bourgeoisie against the feudal lords. Mon: But he failed.Years after Cromwell died and was buried, his body was exhumed, his head beheaded, and his head hung for several years on the roof of the Houses of Parliament. Chairman Mao: But in history Cromwell had prestige. Meng: If it were not for Cromwell, Britain would not be what it is today. Chairman Mao: Jesus was crucified on the cross, but Jesus has authority. Meng: That was after his death, when he was alive, he didn't have many followers. Chairman Mao: Washington represents the American people. Meng: But he was assassinated[17]. Mao: Gandhi[18] of India was also assassinated, but he represented the Indian people. According to the "Selected Works of Mao Zedong's Diplomacy" published in 1994 by Central Literature Publishing House and World Knowledge Publishing House, the original title was "Talking about the International Situation with Marshal Montgomery". -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ note [1] Montgomery (1887-1976), British Field Marshal.One of the Allied commanders during World War II.He later served as chief of staff of the British Army and Supreme Deputy Commander-in-Chief of the NATO Allied Forces. [2] Eisenhower, then President of the United States.Dulles, Secretary of State from 1953 to 1959. [3] In 1950, in the free elections in Turkey, the Democratic Party led by Menderes won and took power.After Menderes came to power, he broke his promise, abandoned democracy and the constitution, and suppressed the opposition.On May 27, 1960, a group of junior officers of the Turkish Armed Forces commanded troops in Istanbul and Ankara to stage a military coup, overthrowing the Menderes government.Mandelez was executed. [4] Clausewitz (1780-1831), a German military theorist, whose main works include "On War". [5] Genghis Khan (1162-1227), Yuan Taizu, named Temujin, military strategist and statesman. [6] Marshall (1880-1959), American Democrat, former Secretary of State and Secretary of Defense.In December 1945, he was sent by the President of the United States as a special envoy to China. In the name of "mediation", he participated in the negotiations between the Kuomintang and the Communist Party and supported the Kuomintang government in launching the civil war.In August 1946, it was announced that the "mediation" had failed, and he returned to the United States soon. [7] On December 8, 1941, without declaring war, Japan suddenly attacked Pearl Harbor, the largest U.S. naval and air base in the Pacific region, destroying or injuring 19 U.S. warships and more than 200 aircraft. The Pacific Fleet suffered heavy losses.On that day, the United States declared war on Japan, and the Pacific War broke out. [8] Refers to the Japan-U.S. Mutual Cooperation and Security Treaty, see note [3] on page 93 of this volume. [9] Eden (1897-1977), British Conservative Party member, former British Prime Minister and diplomat. [10] Southeast Asia Treaty Organization, see note [2] on page 67 of this volume. [11] Nehru, then Prime Minister of India. [12] Washington (1732-1799), the first president of the United States.After the outbreak of the American Revolutionary War in 1775, he served as the commander-in-chief of the Continental Army. He reorganized and trained the backward armed and loosely organized local militia into a regular army that could directly compete with the British army, and led the United States to victory in the War of Independence. [13] Macmillan (1894-1986), a British Conservative Party member, was then Prime Minister of the United Kingdom. [14] De Gaulle (1890-1970), then President of France. [15] Ho Chi Minh, then Chairman of the Central Committee of the Vietnam Labor Party and Chairman of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam.He once led the Vietnamese people in the War of Resistance Against France and National Salvation. [16] Cromwell (1599-1658), the main military and political leader during the British bourgeois revolution in the seventeenth century, the leader of the independent faction, and the representative of the new bourgeois aristocratic group.He led his army to defeat the king's army, and in 1649 he declared the Republic.In 1653, he appointed himself the "Lord of the Nation" and established a military dictatorship. [17] Montgomery's memory is wrong here. Washington died of illness in his hometown of Mount Vernon on December 14, 1799. [18] Gandhi (1869-1948), the leader of the Indian National Independence Movement, was elected as the chairman of the Indian National Congress Party.Long-term leader in the struggle against British colonial rule and for Indian independence, was assassinated on January 30, 1948.