Chapter 21 My understanding of several basic concepts

Interviewer: Yang Weidong Time: January 8, 2010 How do you understand the word labor? Of course I can talk about the standard definitions we have learned.The definition of Marxism is that labor is an activity in which human beings make and use tools, change the object of labor to suit their own needs, and are purposeful and conscious activities.The key is to make and use the tools.After the tool appears, it enters labor.How does labor create the world, create value, create language and consciousness, and finally create human beings themselves.This is the textbook definition we learned. My personal opinion is a bit different from this.If it is characterized by tools, some animals can also make and use tools. For example, gorillas pull down leaves, use a stick to reach into termite nests, and catch termites to eat. This action not only creates tools, but also Tools are used.So, can we say that gorillas are also laboring?I think that Marx and Engels took the manufacture and use of tools as the characteristic of labor, and then took labor as the characteristic of human beings, which has been proved to be problematic by the new knowledge of later generations.

In addition, Marx said that labor creates value, and I also disagree with this statement.what is the valueSomething that can meet people's needs and is scarce is valuable.For example, do you think there is any value in a fish?It is usually said to be valuable, how did it come about?You said that I raised it, and I paid for it, so it condenses human labor, and it is valuable.Then I said that I fished the fish in the pond in the wilderness, like when the people of the Great Northern Wilderness first went to "beat the ladle and scoop the fish", they took a ladle and fished it out of the water. There is no human labor condensed there. Is this fish worth it?Now most people would say that it is more valuable because it is wild.Therefore, labor does not create value, and there will be confusion on this issue.

My explanation is that heaven and earth generate wealth, which is an ancient Chinese saying.Heaven and earth can create value, fish are created by heaven and earth, various plants are created by heaven and earth, and then insects, fish eat plants and insects to grow up.Fish is valuable to humans and is scarce, so people are willing to pay something in exchange for it, and this fish has exchange value.If the natural fish are almost caught, people have to pay productive labor to raise fish and feed them, which will promote and supplement the wealth of the world or natural production.What is the production of human labor? It is the pursuit of value and wealth. This value and wealth are added to the natural part of nature through productive labor.

There is a difference between labor and production.For example, when people use tools to gather, hunt, and fish, that is labor, because they have paid, but these people have seized the plants or animals created by the world through this kind of sacrifice, and they have not created them.If I raise the fish, grow the wheat, and then harvest it instead of going to the wild to gather wild wheat, this labor becomes production.Production is creation, not simple grabbing.Production is a particularly developed activity for human beings, not to say that other species do not have it. For example, some ants also produce. Leafcutter ants cut off the leaves and pull them back to their nests to cultivate a kind of fungus, which makes the fungus grow, and then they eat That bacteria, this is also a production behavior.

Let's go back and talk about what labor is.When talking about labor, it is best to talk about it separately from many concepts in a historical sequence.For example, cattle eat grass, and tigers and wolves hunt for food. What are these activities called?The activities of these species are similar to labor, and they pay various prices such as blood, sweat, life, and time, but they are generally only called animal activities, not labor.Then, humans came, gathering and hunting, similar to cattle, sheep, tigers and wolves, sometimes more complicated, such as using or even making tools, so ordinary animal activities became labor.There is still a blur between animal activity and labor.For example, is collecting and picking fruits without using tools counted as labor?I'm afraid it counts too.How can picking fruit in the orchard count?But does picking fruit in barren mountains and old forests count?If so, how is it different from orangutan activities?Along the historical sequence, labor goes further and becomes production.This is no longer taking from nature but producing and creating something new.Labor is just one step in the evolution of this series of activities.It is not only different from animal foraging, but also slightly different from production, but it runs through animal activities, human activities and production activities, and always emphasizes a relatively advanced contribution of the subject.Breaking it down, picking fruits without tools is labor, and using tools to pick fruits is also labor, although these two labors do not produce and create fruits, and then develop, and advanced stage labor can produce and create things.Labor is a kind of high-level effort throughout this series of processes.From another perspective, labor can also be divided into three stages, the stage of general activities, the stage of pure labor, and the stage of labor production.The definition of Marxism emphasizes the third stage.As for the value created by labor and the characteristics of human beings just mentioned, it is too far away. Labor itself probably has this outline.

The kind of labor you mentioned just now, I feel, may be a way that human beings pursue. Now I feel that labor has become a burden for us, and everyone feels that labor is a kind of pain. In fact, labor does not violate human nature.For example, when the British nobles went hunting for recreation, they regarded hunting as a kind of pleasure.Some people regard planting and breeding as a kind of fun.For example, I also regard writing as a pleasure. It is very good to give me a manuscript fee, and I will write without a manuscript fee.I guess you also feel this way when painting. This is our creative activity, which meets the definition of the advanced stage of labor I just mentioned. It creates a kind of thing, and this kind of thing is valuable.This is both labor and production, and it is not exactly a painful effort.The most primitive gathering and hunting, as well as things that people avoid, such as working, farming, and workers building, these sacrifices we make in exchange for survival resources, I don’t think it’s completely painful.

Purely from the perspective of biological evolution, according to the design of human beings, it is painful if this person is forced to lie still all day.It is best for people to be active for an hour a day. Now health experts recommend that you take more than 6,000 steps for walking, and it is best to reach 10,000 steps. This is the standard amount of activity.You need this activity to maintain your health, sitting all day is not good for your health.Within this range, he is willing to pay. If you let him sit all day, he would rather spend a little money to swim or walk.Not for making money, he would rather spend money to do these things.If our labor time is limited to one or two hours, many people will feel that this dedication is a kind of happiness.Pure physical exertion is also a kind of pleasure. If the work itself has more artistic creation colors, it will be even more enjoyable.

This kind of design, which is willing to pay for one or two hours, is probably in line with the primitive environment in which we humans were formed.In this environment, for example, those people in Africa who live by gathering and hunting now can get food for a day by working an average of four or five hours a day.These people are now being forced into less favorable environments, where the best places to live have been taken over by modern civilization.We can imagine that at the beginning of human formation, in the process of global expansion, they enjoyed much more resources than modern African primitive people. They probably don't need to work four or five hours a day, and one or two hours is enough. .The amount of effort for these two hours is exactly the best state for him to live every day and last for hundreds of thousands of years and millions of years.In this state, they do not feel that labor is a kind of pain, and even feel that this kind of dedication is very pleasant.Some people still feel that if only one or two hours a day is enjoyable, including fishing and gardening, it can be seen as a continuation of this instinct.In this sense, the labor has to be excessive, from two hours to six hours, eight hours, twelve hours, will become more and more painful.

How do you understand the five words "serving the people"? It depends on when.My original understanding is very different from my current understanding. For example, during the "Cultural Revolution", when were you born? (Interviewer: I was in 1966.) I was more than ten years older than you. In 1966, I was already in the third grade of primary school.At that time, we had already started to learn from Lei Feng.Lei Feng said a lot, which impressed our generation at least. One of them is: "Human life is limited, but serving the people is infinite. We must devote our limited life to serving the people infinitely." .This sentence gives "serving the people" a status, which has a series of characteristics of immortality and greatness.Deep down in every human being is a sense of smallness and insignificance, that life is short, and in the words of some psychologists, it is a fundamental anxiety that we know we are going to die, that our lives are short, that we are so impotent as individuals, So there is a pursuit in the opposite direction. We want to be immortal, great, and powerful, not limited but infinite.In terms of time and space, what Lei Feng said shows his fundamental anxiety. He hopes that his limited life can enter an infinite state, and serving the people is a way to enter the infinite state.

A passage we are still familiar with is the famous saying of Paul Korchagin: "The most precious thing for a person is life, and life belongs to everyone only once. A person's life should be spent in this way: when he looks back on the past, he will not He regretted wasting his years, and was not ashamed of doing nothing. When he was dying, he could say: My whole life and all my energy are dedicated to the most magnificent cause in the world-struggling for the liberation of mankind. "This is another greatest cause of "serving the people". This cause is like God. We melt into it, dedicate ourselves to him, and put our whole life into this infinitely great cause, so we feel at ease , we are calm.

Looking back, although I was not able to articulate it at the time, my understanding of serving the people is that it provided me with a way to overcome the fundamental anxiety of my heart and enter the realm of infinity and immortality, and this way was supported by Marxism. The whole set of theory is supported by a set of rigorous logical proofs.This was the opinion at the time. Later views changed.Thirty years of reform and opening up have changed the whole society and everyone.I now feel that serving the people has a less strong foundation in human nature. Human nature is very complicated. For example, Gao Zi said that "food and sex are also sex", and Confucius also said that "eat and drink men and women, and people's great desires exist."Mencius also said: "Everyone has a heart of compassion."Compassion is sympathy, it is the end of benevolence.When we develop sympathy, it becomes benevolence, and the benevolent loves others.At the same time, it also talks about food and sex.We are greedy for money, we are lustful, we also have compassion, and we also have a sense of justice.Confucianism believes that human nature is endowed by heaven, and human nature embodies the principles of heaven.The natural principle in the human heart is conscience, which is born with it.We innately know what is right and what is wrong; what is good and what is bad; what is good and what is evil.As long as you act according to this conscience, what you do is benevolence and righteousness, and it is moral. I would like to play a little bit and add, to place compassion and the entire conscience in the integrity of humanity, not only to respect conscience, but also to respect all humanity.Then, according to the Confucian classic "The Doctrine of the Mean", act rashly, and regard this idea of ​​giving full play to human nature as a kind of doctrine.As stated in The Doctrine of the Mean, destiny is called nature, straightforwardness is called Tao, and cultivation of Tao is called teaching. The concept of human nature includes not only benevolence and righteousness.Serving the people is a display of humanity. When we face our own nature honestly, we can feel sympathy and a sense of justice. This is the physical and psychological basis for serving the people.Serving the people is the normal display of our sympathy and sense of justice.But we still have other aspects of human nature, other desires, such as lust, liking for food, playfulness, laziness, and not wanting to do more than two hours of work. These things are also part of real human nature.These desires are also often in conflict.For example, I am thirsty now, and I see you are also thirsty at the same time, so there is a conflict between whether you drink the glass of water or I drink it.The general way to resolve this kind of conflict is: If I am thirsty to 80 points, but my sympathy for you is only 30 points, then I will drink it myself.If my thirst level is only 20 points, my sympathy point of 30 points will make me give you a drink.This shows that when we have enough food and clothing and are not so hungry and cold, our sympathy will be relatively prominent, and our choices will be more kind.If we are hungry and cold, we may appear to be very vicious, not so polite, not so much compassion. So, how do I see serving the people now?I don't regard serving the people as the only pursuit in life, or the main pursuit.It's just part of every aspect of being human.It has its foundation and should be developed. It is a good thing of kindness, but our other desires, such as our hunger and cold, our need to eat and wear, food and sex, as long as they are not excessive and do not violate others, they should all be obtained. With full respect.My own desires should be respected, as should the desires of others.I regard the overall human nature as the foundation of civil liberties and rights, and I think it is this human nature as the basis of civil rights that deserves the most respect.The social structure built on this basis is more solid and complete.It is not very human to cling to a system, a social structure, that is extended by compassion or love for the people. In short, I think that serving the people as the whole meaning of life, although this idea also has a human basis, is rather extreme and incomplete. It should be adjusted and enriched, and a more complete outlook on life should be established on this basis. I found the explanation of human nature in the fifth edition of "Modern Chinese Dictionary" in 2009. Human nature is the normal emotion and rationality of human beings. This is its definition of human nature.Can you tell us about your understanding of human nature? Human nature should of course include normal feelings and reason.I imagine human nature as a space of 100 square meters, where there are various divisions, such as the two big pieces of emotion and rationality, or the seven emotions and six desires, which can be divided into 13 grids, and there are 13 "sex points". The area occupied by the points is different.For example, sympathy occupies 7 square meters, appetite occupies 20 square meters, sexual desire occupies 15 square meters, and then there is the desire to seek warmth or a suitable temperature, the desire to seek comfort, and the fear of death, etc.We can make a list.These things are part of normal human nature, and these things can be proved by physiology and psychology.For example, one part of the brain governs thirst, one part governs hunger, and the other part governs compassion.The part that manages compassion is called mirror neurons, which can mirror the feelings of others. I see you being scalded, and I can feel your pain when you frown. From the intoxicated look, I knew it was delicious, and I wanted to taste it too.This is the physiological basis of compassion.The same is true for the sense of justice. The sense of justice is in the caudate putamen of our midbrain system. That part is in charge of various addictive behaviors, such as drug addiction, smoking and alcohol addiction, and is called the opium reward area in medicine.It will be very enjoyable for you to take the risk and draw your sword to help in the face of injustice like a hero.When we read Jin Yong’s novels, we also find it very enjoyable when we read chivalrous actions. This in itself is a kind of reward, a kind of fun. You take the risk to do this kind of thing that fights injustice, because it makes you feel happy.The quest for fame also has a fixed place in our brains.When you make money and someone praises you, the neurons in this position will be activated.Whether you gain fame or gain, the same part of your brain is activated.In this sense, fame and fortune can be interchangeable, so that people can feel the same happiness.These are all different components of human nature. The existence of these sexes should be undisputed, and the possible disputes are: what is important, and which of these sexes is dominant.Which sex is dominant depends on social conditions.As Guan Zi said, "If the granary is solid, you know etiquette; if you have enough food and clothing, you know honor and disgrace."People's pursuit of honor is positively related to "sufficiency in food and clothing".People's sympathy, sense of justice, and polite upbringing are positively related to "Canglinshi".When you are hungry and cold, you act like a starving or homeless person, you may lack empathy, and you will grab other people's food.When our material desires are satisfied, our moral standards will also increase accordingly.It's a matter of which sex is dominant.This is my understanding of human nature. When we interviewed the famous philosopher Mr. Zhang Shiying, he said that from 1949 to 1979, during these 30 years, human nature was not allowed to be discussed, only class nature was mentioned. If we talked about human nature, we would be bourgeois. Communism is the full return of human nature. Marx faced human nature directly. If this is the case, did the interpretation of human nature in the thirty years from 1949 to 1979 enter into a misunderstanding? That's right.Then criticize the theory of human nature.The saying at the time was that there was no abstract human nature.It seems that there are no abstract cups, only porcelain cups, iron cups, and paper cups.Similarly, human nature is embodied in various class natures, whether it is the human nature of the petty bourgeoisie, the human nature of the proletariat, or the human nature of a certain decadent class.Human nature is embodied as a specific class.At that time, there was a lot of talk about class nature, and Lei Feng said: treat comrades with warmth like spring, and treat class enemies as ruthlessly as autumn wind sweeps fallen leaves.But isn't that spring-like warmth human nature?Of course, Lei Feng was talking about class affection for class brothers, but it is still a way of embodying human nature.Therefore, whether he talked about human nature in those 30 years or not, if he also used the theory at that time to say that human nature has been embodied as a specific class nature, then he still talked about human nature.Of course, the spring-like warmth he talked about is quite forced in practice, a bit too much, so it is a bit fake.At the same time, some people are excluded from this circle, and there is no sympathy for them. Sympathy for the enemy is a crime against the people. In that sense, there is no sympathy at all.But in real life, ordinary people may not have no sympathy for the so-called class enemies.This set of sayings and practices needs to be dissected in detail, and it is not clear if they are mixed together. That is, at that time, no matter whether it was the proletariat or the bourgeoisie, it was that he had the most basic law as a human being. As you just said, putting human nature in so many grids, I think that no matter whether the bourgeoisie or the proletariat is like These things are the most basic conditions shared by everyone. Do you think my understanding is correct? On a physiological basis, no matter what class of people, the functions and locations of different brain regions are similar in anatomical sense, and there is no class distinction.Your explanation is fine. History is the development process of the natural world and the human world, can you tell us about the role of history? The definition of history should include at least two aspects.The first is the so-called development process of dictionaries.What we are today is a continuation of history. We come from a long process of biological evolution. Going back a million years, we are not like this. We are more suitable for climbing trees. At that time, we had no clothes and a thick layer of hair on our bodies.What we are now is the result of tens of thousands of generations of evolution, and we live in this result.What is that history?Everything about us is a product of historical development. The composition of human nature I mentioned just now, including compassion, is a product of historical evolution. People with compassion have a stronger ability to cooperate and can respond to the various reactions of their peers. To develop a precise understanding and establish a more effective cooperative relationship with them, so their mortality rate is lower and their offspring are more numerous.As the descendants of those people, their characteristics have been inherited to us, so we can talk about human nature, serving the people, and talking about "food and sex". We have these things that are suitable for survival.If we didn't know how to find something to drink when we were thirsty, and didn't know how to find something to eat when we were hungry, we would have died long ago.What does it feel like to be hungry?Your mind is full of thoughts of eating, and you have to forage for food so as not to starve to death.We have this powerful inner drive that not only keeps us alive but also bears children and responds to their cravings.In this sense, history is the basis of everything we are today, and we are the continuation of history.Tomorrow is the continuation of our today, which is the first meaning of history.In this sense, we are part of history, and we can't even separate history at all. What we just said, the voice that just disappeared here, that was a few seconds ago, that is history, let's continue now, We are following the direction of history, we are continuing the history of a minute ago.This is the first meaning of history, which is the extension and development of all material reality. The second meaning of history is the narrative of the above-mentioned process.When we talk about history or study history, read a history book, run a history magazine, or teach a history class, we are pursuing and describing those things in the past.What is the use of tracing or narrating things from the past?The main function is what we often say to learn from the past-knowing the past can help us understand the present and predict the future.In terms of core structure, the past and today are often the same. We have studied the relationship between the government and the people in history, and we know what the relationship between the government and the people is like today.When something happened, such as a black brick kiln, we can find this kind of black kiln in history, see how it appeared, how it was solved later, and the effects of different solutions, etc.Through this research, we can determine whether black brick kilns will appear today, where they will appear, and what results will be brought about by cleaning up and rectifying in this way.We can find all these things in history.The function of history is to be a mirror for us. When I was interviewing a film critic, he said that real history is relative, and history is often written by the victors. If this history is beneficial to the victor, it is often written very clearly. If it is not, He will write very vaguely.In this case, the real history must be very cruel, and sometimes even very bloody. Do you think my understanding is reasonable? This is his understanding.The general idea is good, but not completely correct. Then, your understanding will be more one-sided, and the problem will become double.Is history written by the victors?Not necessarily, we have a lot of unofficial histories, including today I saw a memoir of Chen Boda on the bookstall outside. Chen Boda is not a winner, he is a loser, and losers are also writing history.There is also a memoir of Chen Bulei. Chen Bulei is also a loser. The Kuomintang has failed as a whole, but there are two books on the bookstall now, one is Chen Boda’s memoir and the other is Chen Boda’s memoir. ?Besides, China pays attention to compiling history for the previous dynasties. The people of the previous dynasties, such as Hai Rui’s dismissal from office, whether they were winners or losers, died long ago when the history of the Qing Dynasty was compiling the history of the Ming Dynasty. By.So there is a problem with what he said, and then your understanding is even more biased. There is a saying that reflection is the beginning of wisdom, that is, do you think there is any similarity between confession and reflection? Generally speaking, in Chinese language, confession means that I have done something wrong and I have a problem. Reflection does not necessarily include this kind of admitting of mistakes. Is there any need to say this kind of semantic discrimination?I think it's quite clear. Have you ever experienced this kind of confession? I wrote a special article called "My Ultra-Left Experience", which talked about what happened when I jumped in the queue, what happened when I learned from Dazhai, how to block the water of farmers' private plots, water the collective first, and then water Personally, I can't wait to cancel the private plot.Later I realized how important private plots are.In the early 1960s, when private plots were largely canceled in 1959 and 1960, more than 30 million people starved to death. One of the reasons was that there was no private plots.This is not what I said.Li Xiannian went to Xinyang and saw a scene of misery. People starved to death in every village, and there was a depression. He said with emotion, if we keep a little freedom, such as private plots, even if class enemies make trouble and destroy them, so many people will not starve to death. .Later, when I read history, I realized how stupid, ignorant and fearless I was doing.It's a bit of a confession. What kind of perspective and position should we use to look back and examine history at present? Everyone will have their own perspective.Everyone will choose a perspective according to their needs.Which perspective to choose depends largely on what you want to do.Our magazine and our authors really want to find the reason why we have fallen so many times in the past few decades and a hundred years, find the root cause, and then correct that problem, so as to avoid falling again and repeating the same mistakes. For this reason, we read history , Study history.Therefore, people generally don't think much of those things that are going smoothly and singing all the way.Since we have gone well, we don't have to reflect on it, and we don't have to brag about it.In this way, the angle we choose is often the angle to find the problem.China's democratic system is not perfect, one person has the final say, and there is no power check and balance, and there is no real guarantee for individual freedom based on power check and balance and democracy.Whether it is freedom of speech or various economic and political freedoms.I often read history from this perspective.Especially how violence violates various rights. Just now you said that 30 million people died of starvation. It seems that 30 million people died during World War II, right? It is not that 30 million people starved to death, this is an approximate number.The least is more than 17 million, which was calculated by a vice chairman of the National People's Congress who did population research back then.There are more than 40 million.Yang Jisheng, the vice president of our magazine, wrote a book called "Tombstone", which is the most in-depth and comprehensive work on the study of the Great Famine so far, with 800,000 to 900,000 words.He introduced various theories and collected various materials.First of all, no one can accurately say how many people died of starvation. A more well-founded number is 33 to 4 million people. Teacher Yang is biased towards this conclusion. I believe in his research and verification process, so I also accept this number , not 30 million people, but more than 30 million people. If there are more than 30 million people, it seems that more than 20 million people died in our country during World War II, right? I don't know the death toll in China in World War II, only that the famine was unprecedented. Morality is all codes of conduct and norms for people to live together. Can you tell us about the standards and functions of morality in human social life? Human beings need a lot of resources to survive and reproduce, and resources are limited, so there will be conflicts.Therefore, when people deal with each other, they will form some norms, through what method, how much to give, how much to get, and to draw a clear boundary. This boundary is called "point".Everyone has a certain "point", and everyone must keep their own.For example, if your subdivision area is 10 square meters, if it exceeds that range, it is called excessive.You gave up ten square meters of your own and occupied one square meter of mine, which is a penalty.How legitimate and reasonable this division is, there are still a series of arguments.For example, if you are a big brother, you have the title of big brother.I am a younger brother, and I have the status of a younger brother.The king has the king's share, and the minister has the minister's share.Officials are divided into officials, and people are divided into people.Husband and wife, father and son, and friends all have their own identities, so an ethical relationship is formed.This is morality.If you don't abide by this morality and commit crimes, the society will be in chaos, and fights will form, forming a coercive force, forcing you to keep your own law and order.If you talk about morality and live in peace with each other, you don't need to use force to coerce. But the boundaries of division, or moral standards, are always in flux.There are light changes and dark changes.For example, according to the regulations, the official's share is 15 square meters, and the civilian's share is 10 square meters.This official expanded his 15 square meters to 20 square meters and compressed my 10 square meters to 5 square meters through various methods and "hidden rules".This is excessive, excessive, and guilty.But I want to resist, for example, I want to petition, the cost is very high, I have to pay the value of 8 square meters, and I don’t necessarily get back the lost 5 square meters, there is only a 2% chance of getting it back, then I will swallow my anger and just Let the office expand from 15 square meters to 20 square meters, and accept my reality of compressing 10 square meters to 5 square meters.This is dark change.It's no surprise to get used to it. There are also changes.The titles of rulers, ministers, fathers and sons are different, big and small, and the whole of this regulation is called etiquette.However, some people think that this set of name regulations, this set of etiquette structure, and the moral system that maintains this set of things are inherently problematic.Because it is unequal, it gives you the convenience to violate me, deprives me of the right to resist, makes my resistance cost high, and makes the cost of your violation of me very low and the risk is very small.At this time, if you say that I should abide by this morality, if I do not abide by this morality, it will be detrimental to society, and I will say that there is a problem with your social order and this set of morals.Even from your point of view, if your power is too great, you will go to your own opposite, because the result of this going on is that you will expand more and more, and I will be compressed smaller and smaller, and the last square meter is gone. Compression Under the strong rebound, make the world turned upside down.Your kind of morality itself is destructive, and morality contains huge risks and instability in the distribution of benefits, making this kind of morality untenable and eventually changing.Therefore, when we talk about morality, we have to discuss what kind of morality it is.The morality of the Three Cardinal Principles and Five Constant Principles always leads to self-sabotage.Therefore, some people openly advocate a major adjustment of this moral standard, this set of titles, and this set of etiquette structure.For example, every citizen has his own rights. You are 10 square meters, and I am also 10 square meters. Officials and civilians have the same area. Officials are elected by ordinary people. If you are too greedy, I will elect you. In this The process shows that our rights and responsibilities are equivalent.Such a social system can be sustained and stable, and such morality is justified and should be followed.For example, the constitutional order in the United States has been generally stable for hundreds of years, getting better and better, gradually refined, gradually adjusted, and the moral aspect has gradually moved from barbarism to civilization, unlike China's ups and downs.The function of this kind of morality is to maintain a legitimate social system of long-term stability, and destroying this order and violating this kind of morality is an infringement of the entire human being and a violation of basic morality. How do you understand the four words "intellectuals"? These four characters are foreign concepts, and the similar concept in China is shi.But the so-called knowledge of intellectuals also includes knowledge of natural sciences, while Chinese scholars pay attention to "scholars aiming at Dao", and they only take Dao, social order, benevolence, righteousness and morality as their ambitions for learning and practice.The concept of intellectuals includes this one, those who engage in social sciences, humanities, and politics, but there is also a large part, those who engage in natural sciences.Literally, that's how I understand intellectuals. I also discussed intellectuals when I interviewed a musician. He said that many intellectuals in China are immoral. He said that you should not talk to me about intellectuals. Love to hear, what kind of attitude do you think he has? He may have been particularly stimulated.I think whether it is workers, farmers, intellectuals, or civil servants, entrepreneurs are generally neutral in my mind, and they are just a kind of occupational classification.No professional identity is particularly moral, and no identity is particularly immoral.If there is some emotional color in this classification, I think the concept of officials is more derogatory, because officials are those who hold power, and this power is not very restricted. Absolute power will definitely lead to corruption. It is said that it is easier to go to corruption.The group of intellectuals has less power and therefore less corruption.The overall social status of some professors is relatively high, but they are also restricted by the supervision of public opinion, and there are relatively few restricted areas for reporting on them.The largest proportion of Chinese intellectuals should be primary and secondary school teachers. They can also engage in a little corruption, but their power is very limited, especially the life of rural teachers is very difficult, which is also very sympathetic. On the whole, intellectuals The degree of immorality is not necessarily higher than the social average.I guess that when the musician said intellectuals, he might have in mind the senior management of a certain university or art school, where intellectuals have more power and more corruption.于是他就有了这么强烈的反感。假如换一个地方，生活在小知识分子例如民办教师之中，他可能就会说，他对知识分子充满了同情。 我在采访一个艺术家的时候，他谈到，如果你把我称之为艺术家，我能接受，你要是把我称之为知识分子，我认为我不够格。我说在你心目中谁能称之为知识分子呢？他举了两个例子，他说一个是胡适一个是鲁迅。后来我的理解是，知识分子要具备独立的思考、对社会的质疑和批判的态度。才能称之为知识分子，您认为我的理解对吗？ 说胡适、鲁迅是知识分子这没问题，如果说只有他们才配称为知识分子，我觉得不对。我觉得这不是在说知识分子，而是在说文化英雄。这是非常高的标准。知识分子是一个中性词，说的是以知识的创造传播为生存策略的那么一些人。比如说知识创造，知识传播，这些人如果不叫知识分子，那他们叫什么呢？你总得编一个词称呼他们吧。我觉得已经有一个现成的称呼了，就是知识分子，非得说他们不够知识分子，那你说他们够什么？你认为够的那个东西，就是我心目中的知识分子。 知识分子通常分成两类，一类称之为公共知识分子，一类叫专业知识分子，我跟他沟通，其实胡适和鲁迅应该划归为公共知识分子的范畴，但是他在解释专业知识分子的时候我就觉得这一类的知识分子，他们具备了他的专业范畴很高的修养，同时他们也具备良知的存在，但是当一个很尖锐的问题出现的时候，他可能回避了这些问题，他自愿地把自己归类为专业知识分子，从而不发表这种立场和态度，您觉得这种划分对吗？ 没问题，知识分子是一个大圈，里面可以分成好多类，专业知识分子、人文知识分子、社科知识分子、工程知识分子，怎么划分都可以，划分标准取决于你的选择。人文社科生物医学，都可以这么划，也可以把这些统称为专业，但也不好说社会科学和人文就不是专业了。也可以根据人们所受的教育程度划，比如说大学毕业就算知识分子了。或者根据靠什么生活来划，靠知识生活还是靠体力劳动生活。从不同角度可以有不同的分类。对知识分子的说法不同，只能说明这个标准定义在人们心目中还没有形成，还比较混乱。如果形成了标准定义，然后问某人是不是知识分子，就会很清晰，争论就没有了。 前段时间钱学森去世了，我在王康先生的生日晚会上看了他写的一本书叫《俄罗斯启示录》，当中就有一篇文章谈钱学森，我从中看到这么一段，他把爱因斯坦和钱学森相比较，爱因斯坦研究大规模杀伤性武器有对人类的警示，而钱学森的研究成果是在几千万人饿死的时候得到的，您觉得这种现实存在吗？ 我没有看过这篇文章。但当时的确出现了大饥荒，大规模的饿死人。当时在核武器研究开发过程中，由于大饥荒，当时的核基地、当时的研究队伍，也同样吃不饱饭，几乎要解散，然后紧急求援，从不同的地方，尤其是从新疆生产建设兵团运了很多大豆，还打了许多黄羊，来维持他们的生活。其实，这些人不管他们搞不搞核研究，不管是研究核武器还是研究理论物理，他们都要吃饭，都要消耗，他们没有抢别人的饭。至于核研究，肯定有一笔投资，这笔投资投了多少，比如说占当年国民生产总值的百分之三、五、十，我不知道，或者零点一，零点五，总有那么一个数。这个数字如果很大，我们就可以说他影响了民众生活，这笔钱可以用来进口粮食。如果很小，就无足轻重。假如进口的粮食只能养活几万人，活不了三千四百万人，就不能说这三千四百万人饿死是因为研制核武器，数字对不上。要详细谈论这件事儿，需要更精确的数据，我们才能做出清楚的判断。当然，你也可以问，为了研制核武器，可以饿死多少人？这个问题不太合理，这么问的前提是，在饥荒年代，除了吃饭和生存，不应该做别的事，甚至不应该有农牧业以外的活动。This is not the case.那场大饥荒是大跃进和极左政策的产物，我们批评这种政策和执行这种政策的体制就可以了。 在这本书里我也看到所谓的饥荒的那个年代，据说是因为年景不好，但从书里我却看到那三年其实都是风调雨顺的。 对，我们一直说那三年是三年自然灾害，实际的气象学的考证，那三年是中性偏好。中国这么大，哪年都有一些地方闹灾，笼统地说那三年是自然灾害不对。不过，用这个说法去说服全国人民的时候，每个具体的人都无法辨别这个说法是真是假。比如说你生活在安徽，你不知道山东是不是闹灾了，你只知道自己这里没闹，各地的感觉就是我这边没闹，但是别的地方闹了。所以这个说法，全国人民是无法反驳的。但气象学家可以反驳。我们还说苏联逼债，大饥荒的第一原因是天灾，第二原因是苏联逼债，反正不是我们的错儿。刘少奇说三分天灾七分人祸，实际上是说我们自己有错，我们至少要付70%的责任。在七千人大会上他是这么说的，但是会下干部议论，就有人说这个估计太高了，应该说是九分人祸一分天灾。后来的历史学家就会说，这是100%的人祸。刚你说的气象学的考证就可以支持这是百分之百的人祸，不是天灾，甚至老天对你比往年还好一点，人祸应该是百分之一百一，而不是百分之一百。 这个人祸是什么？是制度上的大跃进，首先是把农民跟土地的关系全部斩断，原来一家一户自己种自己吃，现在生产单位变成初级社，高级社，变成村，人民公社，你多干了别人占你便宜，你少干了你占别人的便宜，这是一个激励人们偷懒的大锅饭。那时候大锅饭已经不是一个生产队，也不是一个村，已经扩展到一个公社一个乡镇，最大的扩展到一个县，这一个县如果有一百万人，我要刨一百万镐，其中一镐才是给我自己刨的，割一百万镰刀，才有一镰刀的粮食归我。反过来我偷懒，我少割一百万镰刀，摊到我头上才损失一镰刀，这是多么激励人们偷懒的制度！这样的制度，造成了劳动果实和劳动努力之间的分离。然后，这些劳动力又归一些官员调拨，他们头脑一发热，挖水库，炼钢铁，砍树，去干那些后来大量报废，基本都是无用功的事。同时还放开肚皮吃饭，吃饭不要钱，办公共食堂。一方面大量消耗，一方面胡乱支配劳动力，再把劳动和劳动成果完全分开，饥荒就是这么造成的。反过来说，饿死三千万人，就是这种大跃进，这种制度大革命的结果。 在过去人与人交往的衡量标准常常是这人很仗义，很义气，或者两肋插刀，文人更多的是注重气节，您认为在当下这个知识分子人群是不是也应该具备气节这两个字？ 应该，一般说来当然应该。 有人说中国知识分子的脊梁骨断了。您同意这个观点吗？ 知识分子是一个巨大的群体。要按教育水平来说，现在有几千万人，建国初期也有上百万人。毛泽东的第一棍子打在了胡风集团的脊梁上，一些人的脊梁断了，但并没有都断，比如胡风就没断，很多胡风分子都挺硬的，出来之后，也没怎么改口。再往下“反右”，打倒了五十五万。那些人有的服气，有的不服气，虽然他们被打倒了，但是脊梁没断。如果早就把知识分子的脊梁打断了，就不会有五十五万右派。五十五万右派吓倒了一批人，后来又冒出来一批，又说“大跃进”搞错了，最明显的就是彭德怀。然后，庐山会议上又打倒了一批人，很多人也是虽然被打倒了，但是脊梁没断，彭德怀的脊梁就没断，他不肯做检查，周恩来劝他顾全大局。大局是什么？整个中国的建设，中国的道路，中国的旗帜，只有一个人能当旗手，那就是毛泽东。在当时，大家认为毛泽东的路走得通，彭德怀就要顾全这个大局。为此他趴下，但是你不能说他脊梁断了，我觉得他的脊梁还是挺硬朗的，他还是有一种信念和信仰支撑着。再往后说，“文革”又冒出一大批人来，就是所谓的“造反派”，如果反右之后中国知识分子的脊梁都被打断了，怎么又冒出来这批人？ “中国知识分子”如何如何，这种全称判断很危险。中国知识分子脊梁是100%断了还是99.5%断了？还是20%断了？我知道有人断了，还有很多人没断，如果给个比例，例如70%断了，或者是20%断了，30%的人虽然没断但弯下腰了，不敢吭气了，还有多少人硬挺着，连腰都不肯弯，等等，这样的判断更精确，更符合实际情况。 文化是人类在社会历史发展过程中所创造的物质财富和精神财富的总和。我们对文化的解释有上百种，就现在经常谈到的文化重建，我们想听听您的看法？ 您刚才说的解释是标准解释。如果从其他角度研究人类的历史和社会，就会有其他解释。例如，我特别注意人类的生存策略，像研究动植物的生存策略那样研究人类的生存策略，于是，我更愿意把文化定义为非本能性的、通过学习而不是通过遗传传递的生存策略的组合，包括采集、渔猎、游牧、务农、工商等经济策略，也包括社会组织策略。更高一层，还包括对这些策略的正当性及其意义的论证。你刚才说文化重建，显然不是指标准定义中的物质财富，也不是指我所谓的生产策略。我们的农业文明正在转化为工商文明，我们物质方面的文化正在建，比如说建铁路，修高速路，那些都属于新建、续建而不是重建。一说重建就有一个暗含的前提，老东西不管用了，我们建一个新东西。比如毛泽东阶级斗争的理论不适用了，要建一套新理论，不管是“三个代表”还是“科学发展观”，反正不是以阶级斗争为纲了。这属于意识形态领域，官方现在的说法叫核心价值观，主要内容就是对社会组织策略的正当性及其意义的论证。这样，文化重建就可以说成核心价值观的重建，你是问我对重建核心价值观的看法吗？（杨：对）我们得说什么是核心价值观，然后说它怎么重建。 我们的核心价值观，从儒家出现开始一直到五四运动，基本是一以贯之的，就是三纲五常。君君臣臣、父父子子，仁义礼智信，这就是核心。这个核心规定了几大类人之间的基本关系，君臣关系，父子关系，夫妻关系。这些关系进一步扩展为三纲六纪，加入了叔伯、诸舅、族人、兄弟、师生、朋友之类的关系，完善了日用伦常的标准设计。每个人都谨守本分，不要逾分，如此形成一个礼法体系，严守礼法分寸，就是中庸。这个中庸之道，按照朱熹的说法就是道统，道统就是执中。三纲五常，分毫不乱，一丝不差。这就是中国道统的硬核所在，也就是中国传统核心价值观的硬核所在。 这个硬核所包含的日用伦常，缺乏神秘和超越色彩。于是中庸又有两个方向的发展。冯友兰写了《新原道》，他用一种分析框架，叫“极高明而道中庸”。极高明是说，人的生活有不同境界，最低的境界是自然境界，像动物一样糊里糊涂的过日子；比这高一等的是功利境界，明明白白地趋利避害，升官发财之类的；再高一级是道德境界，最高一级是天地境界，与天地精神往来。极高明就是达到最高一等的天地境界。道中庸，就是坚守日用伦常，把最高明的主张贯彻到每天的生活之中。冯友兰认为，几千年来中国的核心价值观就是这么发展的，儒家的中庸之道基本没变，极高明的方向上发生了很多变化。儒家吸收老庄和道家那些非常高明的东西，又接受了佛家禅宗那些明心见性的妙论，到宋朝就形成了新儒家的理学和心学。 新儒家的见解是，每个人都有人性，有良知。人性来源于天，包含了天理，天理进入人性，就是良知。只要我们诚恳地面对本性，发挥本性，让良知自然展开，那就是三纲五常。于是，三纲五常这个硬核，外合天理，内合人性。你只要遵循三纲五常，你就合天理，你不遵守就伤天害理，这是非常强的支持。三纲五常又是良知，人要讲良心，不能丧尽天良。这个核心价值观建构得非常完美，不仅完美而且深刻辉煌。 从一千年的尺度来看，我们的核心价值观就是这套东西。如果以百年为尺度，价值观就发生了剧烈变化。在毛泽东思想那里，三纲五常变成了一个纲，以阶级斗争为纲。阶级有先进和落后之分，先进的阶级就是无产阶级，落后反动的就是剥削的阶级。先进阶级有自己的先锋队，就是党，党还有自己的领袖，于是“阶级斗争为纲”就变成了党领导一切，把一切献给党，听毛主席指挥，毛主席挥手我前进。核心从三纲五常变成了党领导一切。在经济领域是公有制，计划经济，党来设计，党来安排；在政治领域，那就是无产阶级专政，个人服从组织，下级服从上级，全党服从中央，中央又服从政治局，政治局又服从毛主席。这就是硬核部分发生的变化。 最近一百年，我们也没有沉溺于世间的日常生活。毛泽东思想向外追，追到了历史规律，天理变成了历史规律。历史规律引导我们搞阶级斗争，最后进入共产主义天堂。向上追到的极致就是共产主义天堂；向内追，追到了人性的阶级性，阶级觉悟，热爱人民，热爱阶级兄弟，而且那些感情跟历史规律是相通的。毛泽东他们那代人完成了一套完整的核心价值观的重建，天理变成了历史规律，良知变成了阶级觉悟，三纲五常变成党领导一切。这是革命式的变迁。 但是我们又可以看到，虽然说法都变了，核心价值观的深层结构并没有变。论证方式还是向外寻再加向内寻，内外联手支持中间硬核的结构，极高明而道中庸的结构。硬核部分还是有领导有服从的结构。这就是百年来核心价值观的变与不变。 我们再以十年为单位，看看现在的核心价值观。现在官方有官方的说法，民间有民间的说法，发生了严重的分裂，官方不认民间的，民间不认官方的，谁都不认谁。官方的核心价值观，已经不是阶级斗争为纲了，而是四项基本原则，再往前走就是“三个代表”，再往前走就是科学发展观。无论如何，还是坚持党的领导。，当然党不再领导一切了，而是坚持几条底线、几条基本原则，但守住基本原则的底线也不容易，如果守住无产阶级专政，那些老板呢怎么办？那些白领或中产阶级呢？党也代表他们，不光代表无产阶级，仍然要代表全国人民，领导全国人民。 我想打断一下，像刚才您谈到这个突然我又想起为人民服务这五个字，从这种理解他完全违背了为人民服务的意志了。 不是说这样就不能为人民服务，但为人民服务最好的方式是让人民选择，让他们表达出想要什么，然后让他们投票去选。这样的制度就是为人民服务的制度。如果说为人民服务，但整天广播的都是领导的指示，谁是领导也由更高一层的领导任命，这个制度就是为领导服务的制度。制度和说法发生了对抗。现在我们就生活在这个对抗之中。 再接着说核心价值观。核心结构从三纲五常变成了党领导一切，变成四项基本原则，变成三个代表。当然这只是一种理想的表达。苏联倒台前做过一个调查，说你认为苏联共产党是代表了工人，代表了农民，还是代表了他们自己？最后90%以上的民众回答，我记不清准确数了，反正压倒性多数的看法是：他们不代表工人，不代表农民，他们就代表他们自己的利益。官方关于核心价值观的说法，人们认可的程度，恐怕不大乐观。这套说法延续了官方的老路。天理变成了历史规律，历史规律又变成了科学发展观。按科学办事，就像按历史规律办事一样，当然是正确的。在科学问题上，我是物理学教授，你就算是个物理系的大学生吧，你跟我平起平坐还是你听我的？我有资格耳提面命地教导你，你只有向我学习的份儿。这里不能讲少数服从多数。于是，科学发展观可以支持党领导的正当性。再往内心去追究，良知到毛泽东那变成了阶级感情，阶级觉悟，现在只有先进性教育，比过去的支持弱多了。总之官方还在延续过去的路子，但对民间的影响有限，民间另是一个路子。 民间有各种派别，包括毛泽东思想的拥护者，也有各种宗教的力量，在知识分子之中影响比较大的是自由主义。我重点说民间的自由主义。 自由主义的核心价值观的硬核是公民权利，每个公民都享有平等的自由。具体在经济领域，要求市场经济；在政治领域，要求民主宪政，权力制衡。这是价值观的硬核。支持这个硬核的，西方人追溯到天赋人权，平等的公民权利，是由自然甚至是上帝赋予的，这是最高权威。但是中国的自由主义没有在这方面充分展开，也不太容易展开。你说中国人接受天赋人权的说法吗？认可上帝的存在吗？有人信仰，但是有更多的人不信仰。当代中国民间的自由主义，从极高明而道中庸的角度评价，极高明的维度走不高。找不到公认的最高权威。往内心追溯呢，一般大家都接受的说法是，每个人都追求自己的利益最大化。这种人性的自然展开就是市场经济，民主宪政，统称公民权利。市场经济是我付钱，你交货。民主宪政是我缴税，你提供公共服务，都是平等交换。但是这套说法也遭到一些人的诟病，说这是理性人假设，不准确，又提出社会人假设。 总而言之，当代的核心价值观是分裂的，官方走得不太理想，民间也走得不太理想。各自的核心价值观都有不完善的地方。你的问题是核心价值观如何重建，从现在分裂和不完善的状况出发，将来会怎么走怎么变。 我刚才说的是核心价值观怎么一路变过来，现在说它将来会怎么变下去。官方的思路的前景不容乐观。只要坚持官治民，官领导民，两方面权利不平等，就不容易让民间心悦诚服。更何况官方也说民主，一边说民主一边不让民做主，这就有了逻辑矛盾，更不容易说圆。 民间自由主义的发展前景，我觉得可以乐观，但是要弥补几个缺陷。首先，核心价值观的硬核，即公民权利，需要在传统中扎根。公民权利跟三纲五常有关系吗？如果没有关系，我们就看不到它的历史源流，它成了半空中掉下来的，中国历史在它面前就变成了虚无。我们可以找到一个方式，让公民权利跟中国的传统接轨，这个方式就是追究名分的历史演变。中国没有权利这个概念，近似概念是“分”，名分，本分。美国传教士丁韪良把right译成权利，严复就理性批判，严复说right这个翻译是“以霸译王”，用霸道翻译王道。right本来充满了正当性，可是“权利”呢？“权”没有正当性的意思，“利”也没有正当性的意思。丁韪良承认译得不好，但中国没这个概念，这里的权不是指官府掌握的权，指的是人人应得之分。他为自己辩护的时候用了“分”这个字，可是他译的时候却译成权利，如果译成“权分”呢？权分就有了正当性，这是我的分。我守我的本分，你也不能太过分了。right一旦译成权分，整个中国名分变迁的历史，就显现为权利或自由的变迁史。君的分怎么扩张，臣的分怎么缩小，商人之分如何，工人之分又如何，历史上这个边界的进退变化，随着这一个字的引进在我们眼前展开。什么都有自己的分，包括入股还有自己的股份。如此一改，中国史学一下变成了权分演变资料的大本营。第一页，三家分晋，司马光说三家大夫犯分，周天子却把这三位大夫都封为侯，把犯分合法化了，整个名分结构大变，从此不再讲礼而是讲利害，一个新时代开始。司马光说圣人始终关注分际变化，这种变化往往有划时代的意义。顺着这个思路看去，中国历史就是分际演变史。公民权分也不是天上掉下来的，而是各股社会力量，在外界的冲击下博弈，形成的边界变化。既有观念变化，也有实力变化。出现了什么样的社会压力，使权分变得不得不平等，公民权利不得不得到尊重，这一改，中外古今就打通了。未来的核心价值观的硬核，在纲常部分，可以做这样一种锦上添花的调整。 第二个调整也是对硬核的调整。人类疯狂发展，生产力进步，使人们面对自然从过去的弱小变成强势，已经出现环境危机了，于是要把环境之分引入核心价值观的硬核之中，给环境一个地位，自然要有自己的代表。不管是环境局，还是自然之友，还是绿党，要有一个党，他们代表自然说话，像保护鲸鱼的组织一样，有那么一批人就是鲸鱼的人格化身，他们拼命阻挡捕鲸船。人类社会中应该有这股自然力量的代表，在人类价值观念的硬核中作出调整，划出自然的分。这是我能想像到的对中国自由主义的硬核在未来发展中的第二个重要调整。 公民权利的硬核如何获得最高权威的支持？如何向上接，向内通？向上的一路，以前的最高权威是天理，是历史规律，是天命天道。这些东西都出现了大问题。有一部分人宣称他奉天承运，代表天意支配一切，把全体中国人引到深渊之中。有人说掌握了历史规律，你们跟着我走，把中国引入了大饥荒。天命，历史规律，都可能成为某些人手中的工具，支配人的工具。能不能找到一个更高的权威，让人们无法支配？那个概念在汉语里面存在，就是造化。你说你能掌握造化吗？你可以说你掌握天理，但你无法说你掌握造化。在旁观者看来，谁宣称掌握造化，无非是在造化之中多了一个自称掌握造化的狂人，你不可能掌握造化，你只是造化的一部分，你再疯狂也是造化中疯狂的一部分。于是就有了一个比历史规律、天理、天道更高的东西。但是这个造化又不像存在、大全那样固定，造化是可以对人类做出反应的，它是动态的，有生命，有灵魂，值得敬畏。人可以参赞造化，像《中庸》说的参天地之化育。造化的各种演变最后体现为价值观硬核中分际的变化，自然有了绿党，官分萎缩，民分扩张，这些都是我们参赞造化的结果。在这个过程中，我们融入无限，进入不朽。中国的自由主义可以按照中国传统在传统的极高明维度上实现终极关怀领域的追求，进入天地境界。中国的自由主义因而获得外在最高权威的支持。这就是未来中国的核心价值观的高明化的途径。 向内的一路，公民权利如何获得人类心性的支持？食色性也，同时我们也有同情心，还有正义感，这些东西在解剖学上都有固定的位置，它是我们几百万年进化的产物。我们诚实地面对自己的内心，至诚尽性，让这些“性分”充分发挥出来，自然就能外化为公民权利。公民权利之中，包含了我们追求各种物质享受的自由，也包含了我们乐善好施，对他人的同情心，对社会事务的正义感。我们率性而行，但又不能犯别人的分。我们己所不欲勿施于人，第一尊重自己，第二尊重他人，这样的心性，这样的性分及其相互关系，就是公民权利的内在依据。这种心性的自然展开就是公民权利。 这样的人性，既然来自于几百万年的进化，那么，外在的造化，与内在的心性便打通了，内外合一了。人性是造化的产物，人性体现了造化，“天命之谓性”。中国自由主义核心价值观的硬核，就获得了中国传统的完美的支持。由此建构出来的中国式的自由主义，在极高明的维度上内外扩展，可以达到更成熟更完美的境界。这是未来中国价值观变化的一种可能。 在我们小时候经历了对孔孟思想的打倒，包括1974年批林批孔，当时我们很小不明白到底是为什么？但是我们长大之后再回想这段经历的时候，就觉得有很强的意识形态的因素在里面，今天孔老二的坟又修好了，国学热、儒家思想热，是不是这些热的背后，也存在意识形态的因素在里面。 意识形态是官方的建构，那你的问题实际上就是官方现在为什么支持儒家。刚才说到，官方的核心价值观重建走得很不顺，说服力不够。这时官方就要在