Chapter 13 Memories of "The Head Teacher"

In "Cambridge History of the People's Republic of China (1966-1982)" volume edited by Roderick MacFarquhar and Fairbank, p. 613, by Duwe Folkma, professor of comparative literature at Utrecht University In the section "1976 and the Emergence of "Scar Literature"" written by him, he said: "Among new writers, Liu Xinwu was the first to critically touch on the adverse consequences of the 'Cultural Revolution'. His short story " Head Teacher" (1977) attracted national attention. He deals with the ill effects and combined consequences of the 'Cultural Revolution' on the normal lives of young people who were its victims." at 800, by Oriental Linguistics, University of California In the section "The Era After Mao" written by Professor Cyril Birch, he said: "The first expression of 'scar literature' is also a de facto manifesto, which should be referred to the "Class Teacher" published by Liu Xinwu in November 1977. The middle school teacher in the book is a first-person narrator and a beloved character that Liu also wrote about in several later novels. The stories told by the teacher are not dramatic in themselves, but there are few In just a few strokes, I sketched several contrasting images of young people. One is a lost person left over from the "Gang of Four" period. The teacher ignored the suspicion of his colleagues and restored his reputation. But this lost person is not a problem. The party secretary was deluded in her mind, and she was even less enlightened than that little troublemaker, but she was very enthusiastic, and naively dismissed literary works that she had never read as obscene readings. In contrast, the third The student is an affirmed figure, and during the whole turmoil, her family environment protected her mental health, because her bookcase still kept the works of Tolstoy, Goethe, Mao Dun and Luo Guangbin." Then Said: "Liu Xinwu has always been an eloquent spokesperson for a generation of young writers who are emerging..." Then quoted a speech I made at the Fourth Literary Congress in November 1979, and said: "Liu Xinwu has made great progress in using the skills of short stories. Fast. In June 1979, he published "I Love Every Green Leaf". This story successfully integrated metaphors, dramatic events and complex time structures into the description of characters that have long remained in the hearts of readers, and described a talented A eccentric person who is persecuted. The central image of the story is a photo of a woman hidden by the protagonist in the desk... The symbol of the photo hidden by General Liu Xin is shockingly alluded to as the "private land" of intellectuals...In China In such an environment, this is really an idea that could cause an explosion." (Translation quoted from the first edition of Shanghai People's Publishing House in October 1992) Quoting these "foreign devils" is indeed not "worshiping foreigners", but just for convenience Explain the following issues: (1) The work "The Class Teacher" was born out of my long-standing slander against the "Cultural Revolution", which was concentrated in my strong dissatisfaction with the cultural despotism of the "Gang of Four".

(2) This work is the earliest published in "Scar Literature". (3) People's interest in reading this work and the entire "scar literature" is not mainly due to literary concerns, but political or social concerns. (4) The reason why this kind of work can cause a sensation is mainly because it took the lead to speak out the true feelings of "everyone has something in their hearts", but they can't express or can't explain it for a while. Articles of sexual appeal. (5) Such works first attracted the attention of Western "China experts" such as Fairbank and MacFarquhar—they mainly study Chinese politics, society, and history—and used them as a basis for investigating Chinese social politics and social development. It is a kind of material of change, which of course is basically different from the evaluation of pure literature.

(6) As far as literature is concerned, the text of "Class Teacher", especially the novel technique, is rough and clumsy.But when I wrote "I Love Every Green Leaf", I began to improve my skills. It was not until I wrote the novella "The Intersecting Bridge" in 1981 that I began to have a more conscious textual awareness. The idea of ​​"The Class Teacher" matured and started writing around the summer of 1977.At that time, I was the editor of the literary and art editing office of Beijing People's Publishing House (now Beijing Publishing House). From 1961 to 1976, he was a teacher at Beijing No. 13 Middle School. Since 1974, he was "seconded" to leave his job to write. In 1976, he was officially transferred to Beijing People's Publishing House as a literary editor. Of course, the material of "Head Teacher" comes from my life experience in Beijing No. 13 Middle School, but I was no longer in middle school when I wrote it.The publishing house provided me with a much broader political and social vision than that of middle school, and I was able to grasp the possibility and signs of the literary recovery at that time more "nearly", that is to say, I could grasp the fate more timely and profitably. opportunities for individual life.

When I was writing "Teacher in Class", as an editor in the literary and art editing room, I divided the labor to focus on novels. At that time, I had two relatively mature manuscripts, one was the aforementioned "Yacsa", and the other was written by two peasant authors. In cooperation, he wrote "Song of the Great Road" about road construction in rural areas.Their manuscripts are full of life, and their writing is lively and smooth.Although the "Gang of Four" was overthrown in October 1976, on February 7, 1977, the top leader at the time clearly stated through an editorial in "two newspapers and one magazine": "We will firmly uphold all the decisions made by Chairman Mao; We will unswervingly follow Chairman Mao’s instructions.” The “two whatevers” determine that class struggle must be emphasized, and of course the “Cultural Revolution” cannot be denied.Our editorial department has to use this as the criterion for the selection of manuscripts. This is very difficult for me, the editor in charge, and the two authors-we have to let class enemies in the manuscript destroy it, and we have to sing the praises of the "Cultural Revolution."But when they built roads there, there were no class enemies to destroy them, so I went on a business trip to the countryside where they were, and told them over and over again to make up stories about the destruction of class enemies, but I couldn't make it up.As a result, the manuscript was never published.The contact with Xie Kun, the author of "Ya Kesa", made me feel that our generation must hurry up and do things (I was 35 years old in 1977, and I was not very young anymore); Write and write real ideas for change.

In the summer of 1977, I secretly spread out the manuscript paper to write "The Head Teacher" in the ten-square-meter hut at home. The writing went smoothly, but after finishing the writing, when I read it by myself in the dead of night, my heart beat like a drum——? Negating the "Cultural Revolution"! Can such a manuscript be released publicly? Under the domination of the desire to publish, I finally mustered up the courage.One day after work, I went to the Dongdan post and telecommunications office closest to the editorial office to post it, and I wanted to vote it for the "People's Literature" magazine.The female staff at the counter checked the contents of my large envelope, and pointed out to me seriously that letters cannot be included in the manuscript, otherwise they will be charged according to the letter.Psychologically, I felt that I was doing a risky thing. She was so "businesslike" and unaccommodating, which made me frustrated, so I told her not to send it.I cycled from the Dongdan Post Office to Zhongshan Park. I was sitting in a corner of a relatively secluded waterside pavilion, trying to make a final decision: whether or not this manuscript should be submitted or simply rejected. Later, I took out the manuscript of "Class Teacher" and read it carefully. I was moved by the words I wrote, so I decided to post it. In the worst case, it won’t be published, what else can I do? After a few days, I sent it to another post office.

I am not very clear about the specific process of handling the novel manuscript of "Class Teacher" in the editorial department of "People's Literature".I am an introverted person, and I am not good at communicating with public relations. Someone asked me why I didn’t send the manuscript directly to the editorial department of "People's Literature". I'd still rather spend the money and time to send it through the post office.It was already December when the novel was published (the publication was out of date).I saw the catalog in a newspaper, and rode my bike to the editorial department. I was embarrassed to meet the editor, so I went directly to the big house where the general affairs staff lived, and bought ten copies with cash. The people in that room didn’t know who I was at the time.After leaving the editorial office, I hurried home by bicycle and read the ink-scented publications, feeling very happy.However, that was not the first time I smelled the smell of ink from my own articles—my first published article was "Talking about <Forty-first>".Before the "Cultural Revolution", I published about seventy short stories, essays, reviews, etc., most of which were very childish. From 1974 to 1976, in order to be transferred from middle school, I provided manuscripts that met the requirements of the time for the organization that resumed the publishing business at that time, and published several short stories, a novella of children's literature, and a film literary work.Although these are all things that make me blush when I mention them now, they may also have impressed the editors of "People's Literature" at that time, so they could review my manuscript in time.I cherish "The Head Teacher" because it is the first work that I wrote based on my true feelings and my true cognition, and I became famous and known to the world because of it.

After the publication of "Head Teacher", readers responded strongly, and people who read this work wrote to me one after another, especially when the Central People's Broadcasting Station adapted it into a radio drama and broadcast it, the impact was even greater.Some amateur authors with close contacts in Beijing also gave encouragement, and colleagues in the publishing house I worked for were also happy for me.Together, we happily founded "October" (it was not called a publication at the beginning, it was called a series, but it was actually a large-scale literary publication).I struck while the iron was hot and published "The Place of Love" in the first issue of "October", and it was broadcast on the radio immediately.I published "Wake Up, Brother" in the recently resumed "Chinese Youth", and it was broadcast on the radio station.Although these works "ideas are greater than images", some readers told me that they felt an aesthetic pleasure in reading.For example, a worker in a factory found out my home address and came to the door. He held a magazine that published "Class Teacher" in his hand and handed it to me.He underlined and circled many sentences in the novel. He said that those places made him feel very vivid. For example, in the novel, after get off work, workers gathered under the telephone poles at night to play poker. He felt that the details " Like a live fish, it’s fun to watch.”Some influential figures in the literary world at that time, like Zhang Guangnian, needless to say, was the one who decided to publish the work "Class Teacher", and others like Feng Mu, Chen Huangmei, Yan Wenjing, Zhu Zhai, etc., all quickly stood up to support it.But the opposing opinions are also quite strong. Someone wrote an anonymous letter, not to me and the editorial department, but to "relevant departments", criticizing works of "scar literature" such as "Class Teacher" as "thawing literature" (this was not an issue at the time. Good posthumous title, because the Soviet writer Ellenburg once published a novel called "Thaw", which is considered to be the inception of Khrushchev's "anti-Stalin" revisionist political line. "Scar Literature "Since it belongs to "thawing literature", it is naturally advocating "revisionism" in China, which is a serious crime).There are also quite important people who accuse some works of "scar literature" as "political masturbation" (not against my "Class Teacher", but in that case, "scar literature" is definitely "all glory, all damage" , so I was also shocked).Some articles were published publicly, criticizing these works as "immoral", and I also received a signed letter warning me to "don't leave the too far” (the letter said that he had committed “rightist mistakes”, and after that, his critical struggle and decentralization reform were very necessary, and the gains were very great, so I cannot easily obliterate him).At the same time, Hong Kong, Taiwan and overseas have vigorously introduced "The Class Teacher", and some words are quite exaggerated, such as saying that I am the "father of scar literature" and so on.

? At that time, the more such "overseas repercussions" there were, the more some people looked at the parties concerned.Therefore, for quite a long time, I was not very at ease in my heart. In 1981, during my visit to Japan at the invitation of the Japanese "Bunyichunqiu" agency, when the organizer took us to visit a model of an ancient Japanese prison, the translator Ms. Miyuko Hayashi said to me "touching the scene" and said: "Did you almost be locked up?" She was a person who stayed in China during the "Cultural Revolution". According to her personal experience, when she first read "The Class Teacher" (she had returned to Japan at that time), she really sweated for me-this mental state, 29 years In the past, don’t say that young people today are hard to understand, even I, the client, is like a dream in retrospect! But the following things are by no means dreams, but real experiences: "After the publication, in March 1978, the newspaper also published the spirit of the top leader's speech at that time, emphasizing the "two whatevers", emphasizing the need to "continue to criticize Deng Xiaoping's right-leaning style of reversing verdicts", and even emphasizing the necessity of the "Cultural Revolution" and the "Great Victory" (just saying that the "Cultural Revolution" is over "this time", and will be carried out when necessary in the future), and also said that the "Gang of Four" is "extreme right", so as to prevent the strong criticism of the extreme left inside and outside the party. Require. In 1978, "Guangming Daily" published "Practice is the only criterion for testing truth", which was reprinted in "People's Daily". This lifted my mood, and I realized that these things are related to my life and death. In December 1978, the Third Plenary Session of the Eleventh Central Committee of the Party was held. Fundamental changes took place in the political landscape. At the same time, the "April? Five" Tiananmen incident was rehabilitated. In 1989, the revived literary world selected the national excellent novels for the first time, and "The Head Teacher" won the first place.At that time, Mao Dun was alive, and I received the certificate from him, and at the same time, several "scar literature" were awarded together. In 1981, the Sixth Plenary Session of the Eleventh Central Committee of the Party passed the "Resolution Concerning Certain Historical Issues Since the Founding of the People's Republic of China", formally and completely negating the "Cultural Revolution", which was accused of being a catastrophe.Immediately afterwards, the momentum of reform and opening-up surged, showing an irreversible trend.To be honest, it was only at this time that I felt that the political sword hanging over "The Class Teacher" was completely taken away.However, as a special historical period, "The Class Teacher" has the function of carrying folk appeals in the form of novels, and it is over.It has been sent to the "museum" (all kinds of contemporary literary history, or "Cambridge History of the People's Republic of China" and other material works), and it is impossible for ordinary literature lovers to produce aesthetic pleasure in reading. Even, instead, it will lead to the deep question of "how can such a thing be such a sensation".Entering the 1980s, it became more and more difficult to rely on such creative methods and texts to make a blockbuster and win honors.Since "Teacher in Class", I have continued to write. On the one hand, I adhere to the sense of social responsibility, more and more consciously maintain a folk position, and do not give up expressing the folk appeals infiltrated in my heart with my works. On the one hand, I strive to improve my aesthetics. I strive to make my novels even more novels, and greatly expand the space for galloping with my pen.

It has been 29 years since "Class Teacher" was published.I would hate to repeat this "old sesame", but I've heard two very different accounts from the younger generation recently.One way of saying that "The Head Teacher" was written and the sensation it once caused was a deformed literary landscape; A normal landscape that flashes from time to time.I am not sure which of them is more reasonable. Perhaps, only the trajectory of future literary development itself can confirm or deny various predictions. ? Q&A about [Press] This is a talk show recorded by CCTV, which was broadcast four times on July 10, 2006 on CCTV Channel 1 and Channel 10 respectively.Here are some excerpts of my answers to questions from the host and the audience in the program:

Moderator: How old were you when you first read? Liu Xinwu: I think it was when I was in elementary school, because I found that the pillow on the bed where my father slept was very high, so I lifted the pillow and found that there was this inside. It was not thread-bound, but the printing date was very old.There are embroidered portraits in the book, so I think it's very interesting. How does he think about this, let me see if it's okay?My parents thought I was young, so they didn't encourage me to watch it, but they didn't condemn me if they found me watching it from under the pillow.So I think it should be in elementary school at the earliest, probably at the age of 12 at that time.

Host: I don't know what did you like to watch when you first watched it? Liu Xinwu: I like to watch the fight, which is Chapter 9: Suspecting a naughty boy to make trouble in the school.Because I was a relatively introverted person in school, that is, a person with less body language, when I read this, I felt that the people in the book vented for me.I also like to watch the episode of the Drunk King Ni Er, these are supporting roles, others will find it very strange, but because I lived near Longfu Temple at the time, there are such place names as the East Corridor and the West Corridor. The place names under the corridor, so I am very interested. Host: How old are you, do you think you can understand the taste of this book? Liu Xinwu: I think it was still in the youth, it should be said that it was in the late period of the "Cultural Revolution".It was very safe to read "A Dream of Red Mansions" at that time, because Chairman Mao expressed some of his opinions on it. Later, it was a very safe thing to comment on its popularity, and it was reprinted, so I read it at that time.I have my own experience in reading, which is the sense of vicissitudes of life.I read it in the past. For example, there is a character named Lin Hongyu and Xiaohong in it. She said, "A long shed is built for thousands of miles, and there is no banquet in the world that lasts forever." How can I be moved by such words?In fact, I was still very young at that time, not very old, but I felt that after going through a lot of things, people and relationships, I started to think about these things, and I think I started to read at that time. Moderator: Then when did you start to feel that you really understood?Can you come out and talk about "A Dream of Red Mansions"? Liu Xinwu: Frankly speaking, until today, I dare not say that I have read it through, dare to speak out.Let me emphasize again that it was "Lectures of Hundred Schools" that repeatedly dragged me here to speak, and I kept telling them that I would not speak because I did not have confidence.I was very serious during the recording, that’s how I am, otherwise I wouldn’t agree, and after I agreed, I would be very serious.For example, for today's show, since I agreed, I will be honest here, and I will say whatever you ask me.As for the effect, I neither expected nor expected it, it was completely unintentional.Some people say you want to be famous, but to put it bluntly, I have already been famous, and I don’t need to be famous anymore. (Applause) So it should be said that it is in such a state. Up to now, I feel that I still maintain a sense of awe, and I dare not say that I just understand it.I think the more this is the better, because if I feel that I have fully understood and understood everything, and that it is completely correct, when I talk about it here, I am telling everyone what is correct, and then I will not be in the current state.I won't read it anymore, because I will think why read it?I still want to read, it is still full of freshness, I think I may have new gains. Host: Who is your favorite character in this novel? Liu Xinwu: I have already said this in the program I recorded. I said that I like Miaoyu the most, which surprised many people.Wang Meng, one of my colleagues and a friend of mine, talked with me on the phone, and he once said, how could you choose Miaoyu, Miaoyu is the most annoying, and the one he dislikes the most is Miaoyu. Moderator: Noble, withdrawn. Liu Xinwu: Yes, many people understand it that way, especially after being ruined by Gao E's sequels in the last forty chapters, and forming such an image together, I actually think it is not easy for Miaoyu.Everyone has their own personal reasons for what they like, because my personality is relatively withdrawn and out of gregariousness, and I have suffered a lot of setbacks in my life because of my personality problems.In fact, in the final analysis, the outer packaging may be considered political or social, but it is actually a tragedy of character! In fact, I think I am not malicious, and it is quite good, but people think you are virtuous, right?So now I feel that I can see myself in the mirror of Miaoyu.I like her does not mean that I think she is a positive image or a role model that should be learned, that is not what I mean, I just think Cao Xueqin's explanation of this life is the most acceptable to me.All her strengths, weaknesses, and weaknesses are just like that Xing Xiuyan criticized her, "A man is not a man, a woman is not a woman, a monk is not a monk, and a nun is not a nun". This is a very sharp criticism.But there are many shining things in Miaoyu, so I also have self-esteem, self-confidence, and self-love for myself. Host: What I want to ask is, what is it about Miaoyu that you like and respect so much? Liu Xinwu: Because from the description of her specific background and later living conditions in the book, it is very difficult for her to maintain a kind of personal dignity, but she has maintained it.For example, she has already arrived in the capital, and her master has passed away, and her master will not let her go back to the south. The Jia family wants to invite her, and she asks you to post a post. Press people, I will not go.Another example is when she received Jiamu, Jiamu's first sentence was "I don't eat Lu'an tea". If she said it, she said it, and Miaoyu dared to give her back.And Miaoyu has been guarding against her for a long time. This is Miaoyu's cleverness, and I think it is very powerful.In addition, like Lin Daiyu, who dares to say that Lin Daiyu is vulgar?You say that Lin Daiyu is narrow-minded, weak and sickly, but do you dare to say that Lin Daiyu is vulgar?She is vulgar?But Miaoyu was not polite, and said, "You are a big vulgar person", not an ordinary vulgarity.This is a straightforward language, and it is not easy to dare to use such a language to express one's heart in social communication.So I think Miaoyu has a premise in her way of dealing with people. On the premise of maintaining her self-esteem and self-love, she will not hinder others.She is not aggressive towards others, she is not aggressive, and even according to my research, she was able to help others later, so I think this kind of life should be accommodated.I call on our society to accommodate weirdos, marginalized people, withdrawn people, introverted people, and people who speak badly. Moderator: Let me ask you a question on behalf of your opponents.It is because of the archetypal research you conducted, looking for characters in history to compare with the characters in the novel, so that your whole research has the color of a detective novel, so some people question you, saying that you Are you making up a story?Have you used your talent as a writer, of fiction, for academic research?What do you think for this? Liu Xinwu: I think it's his business to have such thoughts and make such comments. I don't have to face such problems and find an answer, because I have already done this, and that's what I did.I think that actually all researchers are facing a big difficulty now, which is the lack of authentic and reliable historical records.This is a common problem that we all face, including whether Cao Xueqin is the author. At least two books have been published recently. He thinks that the author of one of the books is Cao? It may be Cao Xueqin’s father, but Cao ? Is it Cao Xueqin's father? There is still no solid historical data to identify this.There is another person who sent the book to me on his own initiative. He believes that the author of "Dream of Red Mansions" is Hong〖FJF〗Ao〖FJJ〗, even the author who wrote it, can give a lot of circumstantial evidence.So I think all should be respected. Although I am studying from the standpoint of Cao Xueqin as the author, I respect other people's different opinions.So I think some people think that I am different from him, I belong to making up stories, so what, then I think he can have this kind of view, as if I think that person said it was Hong〖FJF〗Aus〖FJJ〗 , He also found some grounds, I think he can have his own opinion.In a society, there are various views on a thing for everyone to choose. Isn't this society a harmonious society? Host: I don't know why you take the character Qin Keqing in the movie as a key to interpret "A Dream of Red Mansions"? Liu Xinwu: There are two reasons for this, one of which is very private.As for me, you see me sitting here, basically my own position is that I am a Beijinger, because I came to Beijing when I was eight years old, and I have never left this city since then, short-term visits do not count, I just settled here up.But my birthplace is Chengdu, Sichuan. What street is in Chengdu, Sichuan?Yuyingtang Street, what is Yuyingtang?The Yuyingtang is the Yangshengtang.I'm not an abandoned baby in Yangshengtang, I'm not. (Laughter) But during the Anti-Japanese War, our economic conditions were relatively poor at that time, and the houses on that street were cheaper to rent. My mother was there at that time, and she did not go to the hospital to give birth to me, but was at home. Please A man delivered me, so I was born in Foundling Street.Therefore, when I read the text, I found that Qin Keqing was brought by Yangshengtang. I am different from other readers, and I am more sensitive. This is of course a reason for being too private.Therefore, when I read this since I was a child, I had a psychological reaction, ouch, Yangshengtang, because my mother told me many times that Yuyingtang is Yangshengtang, and this is one reason. Another reason is that I think she caused me the most doubts.Of course, other characters will have doubts, because I think that the first 80 chapters are basically written by Cao Xueqin, and the last 40 chapters of Gao E are another matter.So taking Twelve Hairpins as an example, apart from Qin Keqing, there are some doubts about the ending of those people, but those questions are not so sharp. Qin Keqing is a person who died in the first eighty episodes, and in She died after thirteen rounds, but she left so many questions, which aroused my interest in exploring the mystery. Moderator: Do research on Qin Keqing and real people in history to find archetypes. Is this archetype research method invented by you, or is it a research method that has existed since ancient times? Liu Xinwu: This kind of research method has existed since ancient times, but I dare not say when it has been since ancient times.In fact, my research methods are two, one method is prototype research.Archetype research is at least a common research mode in Chinese and foreign literary circles since the last century. For example, in Britain, it is generally believed that the work "Jane Eyre" is the author's own autobiographical work; another example is "David? Copperfield is generally considered to be an autobiographical work of Dickens; for example, Russia's Le? Maslova also has a prototype; like Ba Jin’s, there are many articles about Ba Jin before and after Ba Jin’s death, all pointing out that his group prototype is his own family in Chengdu, and the eldest brother Juexin is his own brother.So this prototype research is not my invention, it is actually a relatively classical research method.Another method of my research is close reading of texts.Close text reading is a genre of literary research that emerged in the West in the last century, which advocates close reading of texts.As an ordinary reader, you can read roughly, but now there is a method called diagonal reading, which is even more terrifying. It is a very large page of articles. If you slip away, just cross a fork, and he will know what the content is. .Because there is a lot of information in society now, this is also a way of reading.But if you want to study, you have to read the text carefully. I use the combination of these two methods. After the combination, I feel that there are results and I am very happy, so I will continue to go on. Moderator: Since prototype research is a long-standing research method, why did we encounter such a big disturbance here this time? Liu Xinwu: I think this is because some people who are now called mainstream red scholars have rigid thinking. Of course, I am embarrassed to criticize others like this, but there is no way, because he criticized me first. (Laughter) Look at my lecture. Is there a sentence from the beginning to the end that criticizes others?no, right?And I have repeatedly said that mine may not be right, I said that your views are different from mine, and I respect that too.I remember that there was a detail in me once, I said that I bowed to you or something, it seemed that it was kept in the edited program. Host: We saw it on the show, you have been admitting mistakes, saying that what I said may not be right, it is for reference only. Liu Xinwu: But they are so angry, I think they are more rigid. Their rigidity means that they regard the research model as a norm, and it is frozen and cannot flow.For example, they think it is a class struggle textbook, and you can study it under this premise. The method of research is, for example, take the fourth chapter as the general outline, how the four major families oppressed slaves. Moderator: Guardian Talisman. Liu Xinwu: Protector talisman, this is a research angle worthy of respect, and the point of view is self-contained and very valuable for reference, but you have to allow others to have other ways.Because they've been in business for so many years, right?They are a very powerful existence, and they may not be able to accept why you are so noisy and have such a big influence all of a sudden. Moderator: I want to hear your opinion.Even after the whole revelation caused a huge response, in this incident, what do you think will make you feel more gratified?What is the one situation that makes you feel more regretful? Liu Xinwu: What is more gratifying is that I feel that it seems that some people who were not interested in it before, especially young people, are interested in it. This is one of the goals I want to achieve, and I think it is very meaningful.Because there is a saying that you used to write "The Class Teacher" and you paid attention to social reality, why don't you pay attention to social reality now, why do you pay attention?I feel that after the reform and opening up, the influx of Western culture is inevitable, unstoppable, and beneficial.But in this case, some of our younger generation spend their time watching American blockbusters, Korean dramas, or novels in translation. They despise Chinese traditional culture and classical culture, or have no premise to despise it. They have no time and no interest. So I have used a lecture and two books like this to play up the residual heat that I can as a pensioner. I was in my thirties when "The Class Teacher" was released, and now I am in my sixties, and I can still cause a sensation.One of the effects of this sensation makes me gratified, that is, some young people do not know that there are such interesting books in China, let alone how great it is, you can say it is not great first, that is, how interesting it is, I need arouse their interest. Host: In fact, Mr. Liu has already indirectly answered another question, that is, many people said that he is a bit "not doing his job properly". He told us now that he is a retired old man, and his main job is to take care of his life. year.In this case, what he does can be regarded as a good job, right?You go on. Liu Xinwu: I am not a professional writer, and I am not a person with work tasks. I can completely live my retirement life now.But you can see that I am still involved in society, and this level of involvement has caused great controversy, so I feel very relieved.What is not gratifying and unhappy is that I am not willing to show my face again, and I am not willing to become a hot spot in society again.To be honest, let's be honest, I don't want to be hated by some people at the same time as being liked by others.But this time it happened, those who like it, really like it terribly; those who don't like it, want to tear me in half, this is not what I hope for.In fact, when "Lectures of Hundred Schools" asked me to speak at the beginning, I was very reluctant.Because of course I have nothing to do with a big star like you, but don't shake your head, I also got a little bit of TV fame.When I went to a department store, people said, oh, is that the old man you were talking about?Right, I can be recognized by others, so don't just think that you can be recognized, he can also recognize me now, but it is very embarrassing.One time, I regret it now, because I went to a restaurant for dinner, and the lobby manager came over immediately, Teacher Liu, welcome, are you Teacher Liu?Because I was with a few friends at the time, I didn't want people to know. I said sorry that my surname is not Liu.The smile on her face disappeared in an instant, and I couldn't correct it. 主持人：那您在面对其他的听众、观众的时候，您期待的是哪种态度不管对方是同意您的看法，还是不同意您的看法，您愿意他的态度是什么样的？您愿意跟他们做什么样的交流？ 刘心武：我没有办法控制别人的态度，我也觉得没有资格去预设一个前提，你必须得对我什么态度，你既然做了这个事，什么态度你都得承受。比如说我到王府井新华书店去签名售书，有人背上贴着一个大红心，“刘心武骨灰级粉丝”，看了吓我一跳，什么意思？ 是不是咒我呢？人说不是，现在流行，年轻人，这是最铁杆的，叫“骨灰级”。还有一个， 我看了以后不说吓一跳，但也很吃惊，就是“我爱李宇春，更爱刘心武”。这种我也得接受、承受，因为人家支持你。还有比如说网上，就是一种谩骂，或者是一种有点“文革”大字报气息的文章，人格侮辱或者是人身攻击什么的，那你也得承受。因为人家就有这个想法， 是不是？你没道理禁止人家，所以我现在的态度就是说我都承受，因为这个事是我做的，我讲了，播了，书出了，好像那个钢琴的键，从高音到低音，那你就都得承受。 主持人：其实来我们的节目讲的学者不仅您一个，但是引起反响最大的是您一个，所以我就想除了您的研究的内容之外，其实它还跟一件事情有关，就是您的表达方式。您的表达方式比较利于观众接受，所以大家听懂了，有兴趣了，我想跟您聊聊您的表达方式，比如您专门学过吗？演讲啊？训练过自己吗？ 刘心武：我在接受这个节目的录制之前，跟编导接触，跟制片人接触，我很同意他们的一个定位，就是咱们电视，不是一个电视大学，它就是一个为普通老百姓，为中等文化水平的人服务的。上了班挺累的，上着学作业好不容易弄完的，是给这些人，某种意义上来说看着玩儿的。就是讲学问，也是以一种消遣、消闲的形式，去激发他们对学问的兴趣。 主持人：也就是说在做节目的时候，其实您是有意识地把这些学术研究用一个比较通俗的、有趣的方式表达出来。 刘心武：对，有人说我编故事，其实我所讲的都有依据。有人说你为什么不把你的依据讲出来呢？这是很麻烦的，比如说我讲到秦可卿，她的原型，跟胤〖FJF〗恶〖FJJ 〗家族有关，胤〖FJF〗恶〖FJJ〗他开头呢，为什么叫胤〖FJF〗恶〖FJJ〗？后来为什么叫允〖FJF〗恶〖FJJ〗？我一一说明出处，是哪部书的第几页，或者我参考了哪些人的有关的著作，那你想这个节目能播出来吗？播出来以后能有人看吗？right?毕竟这是《百家讲坛》，我不是要完成一个我的学术成果，也不是说听了我的人以后就纷纷做的学问，他能够对感兴趣，目的就达到了。 主持人：我想可能学者们是担心怕观众如果听说过很多其他版本的东西之后，他把各种各样的版本混为一谈，把文学作品、把戏曲、把电影、电视剧跟真实的历史混为一谈。 比方说你问一个小孩说，你讲讲清朝历史，康熙皇帝是什么样的人，小孩会跟你说，他是韦小宝的哥们儿，韦小宝有七个老婆，其中有一个是他妹妹，这就毁了，大概学者是担心这个。但是如果我们观众有足够的识别的能力，我们知道是怎么回事，应该也不至于发生这种问题。 好，现在我们要给一点时间，给现场的观众，关于刘老师的红学研究，有愿意提问的，现在可以提问。 观众：刘老师到《百家讲坛》来，揭秘，揭秘秦可卿，在红学当中又创了一个分支――秦学，对他这种钻研精神和研究态度，我是很佩服的。我想问一个问题，就是刘老师怎么创意或者是当时的动机是什么？为什么要研究人物的原型？ 作为我这么一个普通的读者来讲，我一下子搞不清这个关系，知道了人物的原型，对我们理解、阅读这本书，或者是研究，有什么关系 刘心武：他问得非常好。他这个问题是两个部分，一个就是我的研究动机，是否有不良动机。现在我就跟大家说，我觉得我的动机是良好的。因为我自己写小说，在写作当中就碰到一个问题，特别是上个世纪80年代以后，外国文学的翻译越来越旺盛，外国文学的新潮传到中国来了，那个时候作家之间言必及比如马奎斯、福克纳什么的，你见面不谈的话你就落伍了。很多作家也是进行揣摩，他们怎么写的，怎么魔幻的，怎么变形，或者怎么意识流等等。我自己也很热心，也参与这样一个过程，而且我从中也获得很多营养。但是我一想，我还是用母语写作的一个人，在中国我也还是坚持用自己的母语来写比较传统的写实性的作品。这样我就觉得，我首先还是要向咱们中国自己的古典文学里面的经典作品来借鉴，首选就是。特别是那个时候我正在构思我的第三部长篇小说叫作，这个小说构思的总体来说，它是具有自传性、自叙性、家族史的性质，而正好是这样一部书。怎么把自己掌握的生活素材，这些生活当中真实的人、活生生的人，把他转化为艺术形象，就是从原型升华为艺术形象，这是我要完成的一个事，这是我的动机了。当然研究就要反过来了，因为它是一个成品，它呈现在我面前的是一个曹雪芹写完的东西，我就要看看它这个人物形象从哪里来的，这样对我的创作有好处，所以这是我的动机。 第二个问题刚才问得特别好。你要写小说，你这么去探索，你去搞秦可卿原型研究，从秦可卿入手，把所有那些你感兴趣的人物都研究了，对我们来说，我们听你这个有什么好处呢？我觉得呢，我在这儿还要再次声明，就是我的研究是很个性化的，是一个个案，绝对不要觉得我的研究就是一个标准，一个正确的东西，一个你必须接受的东西。我到电视台录这个节目的时候，我就一再声明这一点，没有这个意思。那你没这个意思，你又不保证正确，你讲给我们听干吗呢？我要引起你对的兴趣。 主持人：那您目前的工作，您称之为很边缘的工作是由哪几部分组成的？ 刘心武：我的工作是四部分组成： 第一，我当年是以写小说引起大家注意的，所以我继续写小说。最近我还在《羊城晚报》上发表六千字的小说，六千字小说是很典型的短篇小说了，是我从美国访问回来以后写的，所以我不断发表新的小说作品。 第二项工作，我写大量随笔。我这些随笔多数都是排解我自己心中的郁闷的，因为现在社会压力太大，得忧郁症的人很多，心理问题很多，我经常对自己清理，自己进行心理卫生， 所以我首先是写给自己和自己的亲人，以及那些跟我境遇相同的人，然后大家共同地做心灵体操。我记得我在十几年前写过一篇叫作，这篇文章当时在一定范围之内有一定影响。我觉得我五十岁了，我会不会变成这样一个人，突然坐在客厅沙发上，想到自己已经不那么有名了，现在出名的作品都是别人写的了，特别是年轻的，开始叨唠年轻人如何不对，我说我要警告自己，不要这样生活。我觉得十几年来我现在可以很欣慰地给自己一个评价，我没有那样生活，我不嫉妒年轻人，我不嫉妒那些现在销量比我大的小说作家，不嫉妒那些排行榜上的作家，不嫉妒那些新获奖的作家，我继续做自己的事。这个当中我也通过随笔不断调解自己的心理。这是第二个工作。 第三个，我写建筑评论，这个很多人不知道，这算文学吗？这个东西就是跨领域的一种书写，我已经出过两本书。 第四，研究。我研究的大的方向其实主要是私淑一个红学大家，就是周汝昌先生，我是在周汝昌先生的指导下完成我的秦学研究的。我们这个研究是有两个最根本的出发点，说起来非常简单，一个是我们坚持让大家注意，曹雪芹的前八十回是一回事，高鹗是一个续书者，他的后四十回是另外一回事。这两个人不认识，生活的年龄段也不一样，没有过交往，因此就是说高鹗你说他续得好那也是他一个续书好，所以我们研究就是研究前八十回。第二个，我们的前提就是认为前八十回、现在流行的版本也不好，所以你看我在我的讲座里面一再提到古本。现在我就要告诉你，我现在正在做一件什么事？我就打算把周先生，他和他的哥哥，已经去世了，叫周祜昌，还有他们的女儿，用了半个多世纪所完成的，把十三种古本，一句一句地加以比较，然后选出认为是最接近曹雪芹或者符合曹雪芹的原笔原意的那一句，构成了一个新的版本，这个版本已经正式出版了，但是很寂寞。我打算向特别是年轻的读者推荐这个版本，我作为一个评点或者导读，我要做这件事。并不是说我们最后这个版本一定是最好的，但是我们努力地把我们这一个共同观点的这些研究者或者爱好者，把我们的成果奉献给这个社会，奉献给读者，特别是年轻读者。 主持人：这是您的边缘工作的四项，您的边缘人生主要包括些什么内容？ 刘心武：我边缘人生其中一个非常重要的内容就是到田野里面画水彩写生画，这构成我生活当中一个非常大的乐趣。我为什么在农村画，我农村有一些村友，有的村友跟我特别好，他们知道哪儿有野景、野地。在我选择的书房附近还有残余的湿地，还有一些具有野趣的田园，我去到那儿画水彩画，是我生活当中非常大的一个乐趣。 主持人：就是说也许某一天，我们也会看到您的画册。 刘心武：这个不敢说，这个主要是自娱。