Chapter 31 Interview with Jin Yong

Lin Yiliang: There was a poet Liu Yong in the Song Dynasty.At that time, there was a saying: as long as there is well water, there will be people who can sing Liu Yong's words.Now, we can also say the same thing: wherever there are Chinese and Chinatowns, there are Jin Yong's martial arts novels.So, Mr. Jin Yong, how did you start writing martial arts novels? Jin Yong: At first, I mainly liked to read martial arts novels since I was a child.I have been watching since I was eight or nine years old.The first one was "Women of the Wild River", and later "Legend of Heroes of Jianghu", "Biography of Modern Chivalrous Heroes" and so on.I'm a little older, and I like to watch Bai Yu's.Later, when I worked for the New Evening News, there was a need for a martial arts novel in the newspaper. I tried to write one, and then I continued.The novel is called .

Lin Yiliang: Generally, when writing novels and dramas, there are always two different starting points.Some people say that there should be characters first and then stories.In addition, some people say that there should be a story first, and then write the characters based on the story.So, when you write a novel, are the characters important?Or is the story important? Jin Yong: According to my own experience, I wrote the story first for the first novel.When I was a child in my hometown, I heard the story of Emperor Qianlong going to the south of the Yangtze River. There are legends about him being a Han Chinese and a descendant of the Chen family in Haining, Zhejiang.It's my first time to write, and I don't have enough experience. I will make a backbone based on the legends I heard since I was a child, and I will naturally have the outline of a story first.Later, the writing was different. It was to conceive a few main characters first, and then match the story.I mainly want to write about a character like Qiao Feng, and then another Duan Yu who is symmetrical with Qiao Feng. One is rigid and the other is soft. These two men have different personalities.

Wang Jingxi: Recently, you have serialized in Ming Pao, the characters come first and then the story, right? Jin Yong: Yes, I personally think that in novels, characters are always more important.Especially if I write a paragraph every day, a story has been serialized for several years, and the plot changes greatly. If I think about the character of the characters before developing the story, and then think about it paragraph by paragraph every day, sometimes the story will be the same as a month ago. After that, there will be big changes. If the story develops all the way, it feels unreasonable to match the characters' personalities, so I have to change it.I always hope that the character of the characters can be written in a unified and complete way.The role of the story is mainly to set off the character of the characters.Sometimes when I think about the development of some plots, I obviously think it is very good, and then I think that the character of the characters may not be suitable, so I have to sacrifice these plots, so as not to affect the integrity of the characters' personality.

Lin Yiliang: So when I read your novels, I have an impression that the difference between your novels and others lies in your character creation, which is very successful and full of personality, and the plot of the story develops with the character of the characters. , so as to avoid the so-called "vulgar farce" tendency. Jin Yong: If you say that, you dare not take it. Lin Yiliang: In addition, I also have an impression that the male protagonists in your several novels have the same development principle, that is, the master.For example, Chen Jialuo, Yuan Chengzhi, Guo Jing, Yang Guo, Zhang Wuji, and even the current Linghu Chong, their martial arts did not come from one school. There are always several masters, and there are many unexpected opportunities. And then integrate itself.Is this a personal belief of yours?

Jin Yong: It's not intentional, it's probably just subconsciously, it's just like this naturally.Or maybe it’s because, when writing martial arts novels, it’s always customary to write very long ones, and the author assumes that readers will be more interested in the growth of the hero as a person.If we want the hero's growth process to be colorful, it would be too simple to learn his martial arts as soon as he learns them.Moreover, I also feel that even in real life, the process of a person's growth is always very long.It is not easy for a person to be a successful hero.

Lin Yiliang: Another impression, maybe just my personal impression, is that the male protagonist in your martial arts novels, in the process of his growth, whether it is the growth process of life or the growth process of martial arts, until the end, every Actors will always develop to a highest level.Perhaps we can use the last of Wang Guowei's three realms to explain this highest realm: "People searched for him thousands of times, and when I looked back, he was in a place where the lights were dim." This realm seems to be the hero himself. realized.For example, Yang Guo developed to the end, at first he used iron swords, later he used wooden swords, and finally he didn't use swords at all.There is also Zhang Wuji, who learned Taiji sword from Zhang Sanfeng, the ultimate goal was to forget all the sword skills he learned.When master and apprentice were practicing swordplay, Zhang Sanfeng asked him: "How much have you forgotten?" Zhang Wuji replied: "Have you forgotten half of it." Asked again later, in short, he wanted to forget all the sword moves.The current Linghu Chong, the last "Dugu Nine Swords", also has no tricks.Even Chen Jialuo looked at Zhuangzi and realized a truth, reaching the highest level of martial arts.These are all coincident, with the same tendency.What is your personal opinion on this point?

Jin Yong: This is probably a little influenced by Chinese philosophy.Ancient Chinese philosophers generally believed that the highest state of life is to forget, the unity of nature and man, and the integration of man and things.The so-called "governance by doing nothing" is actually one of this ideal state.This is a very lovely state, so when writing martial arts novels, I naturally hope that the protagonist's martial arts are also like this. Wang Jingxi: Have you discussed with some martial arts masters, do they agree with your description? Jin Yong: I have not formally discussed with real martial arts masters, but I think that when Chinese masters compete with each other, they may not necessarily think about what kind of move this time is, and what kind of move is there. It is always natural, and the moves will be natural at that time it came out.

Wang Jingxi: In your martial arts novels, you often like to describe two masters competing in martial arts. Everyone freezes and no one is willing to make the first move.I've seen a Japanese martial arts film about a master who has only one eye, and there is a martial arts scene in it, which is also like this, which coincides with each other. Jin Yong: This situation often occurs in life.For example, if the two armies confront each other for several months, neither of them is willing to strike first.Perhaps in the Western art of war, there is the so-called "preemptive strike", but in our Taijiquan there is a saying of "later strike", the more late strike, the more advantage.These are two different philosophies.However, if both sides insist on post-strike, then of course there will be problems. If everyone does not post, the stalemate may continue for a long time.

Lin Yiliang: Regarding your individual novels, here are a few more questions.For example, when I saw it, I had a very deep impression.The leading actor, Yang Guo, is crippled. In the eyes of ordinary people, it is unimaginable that someone who knows martial arts is crippled.Then the heroine, Xiao Long Nu, lost her virginity again.From the perspective of traditional Chinese thinking, it is also unimaginable for a heroine to lose her virginity.But you can write a crippled hero and a virgin heroine as sympathetic, which can be said to be a very special and bold attempt.Can this also be regarded as a problem for oneself?

Jin Yong: I decided to write this way at the beginning, maybe because there are many people writing martial arts novels, and there are many existing works. When writing by myself, it is best to avoid writing something that others have already written.In general martial arts novels, the male and female protagonists are almost always perfect, so I try to write that both the male and female protagonists have shortcomings, to see if it works.In addition, I have another attempt, which is Qiao Feng.The martial arts of the male protagonists in other novels are practiced step by step, but Qiao Feng seems to be born with such good martial arts.Some readers have written in asking why.My answer is: change.It's just that I don't want the development process of the male protagonist in every novel to be the same.So I won't talk about the source of Qiao Feng's martial arts, just let him seem like he was born like this.

Lin Yiliang: Also, I have some thoughts.For example, Zhao Min, who we always thought was a villain, turned out to be decent.Zhou Zhiruo, who we always thought was upright, turns out to be a villain in the end.Does this kind of arrangement count as deliberately creating problems for oneself? Wang Jingxi: The current serialization is also the same.That gentleman, Jianyue, was out of the ordinary. At first, everyone thought he was a gentleman, but later they found out that he was a big villain.Is this what you want to express your view on life through this arrangement?For example, what everyone thought was very good at first may turn out to be very bad, and everyone had a bad impression at first, but later they may also think that he is very good, and so on. Jin Yong: Yes, but on this point, it is a little different.It is a bit similar to another long novel "Su Xin Jian" (that is), it is about a master who has a bad nature, but he conceals it very well, and then slowly reveals his true colors.What I want to write is indeed my view on life. I want to express a theme, explaining the so-called good and evil in this world, good and bad, these concepts are sometimes difficult to distinguish.It is not necessarily good if the whole world thinks it is good, and it is not necessarily bad if the whole world thinks it is bad.So here I originally wrote about a demon cult, but later I became sympathetic to them, and the so-called decent characters are not necessarily really decent.What I want to write is a little different from other martial arts novels: the so-called distinction between evil and good is sometimes not so easy to distinguish.In life, good and bad are not necessarily easy to distinguish.At the same time, due to the influence of the environment, a person can also be good at first, and then slowly become bad, such as Zhou Zhiruo.Zhao Min, on the other hand, was bad at first, but became better later because of the environment.This is different, the gentleman sword is a hypocrite in the first place, but he conceals it very well.It is the source of those martial arts schools and martial arts moves in your martial arts novels.When you design by yourself, is there any movement coordination?Or is it just a word game?For example, Mr. Xia Ji'an said to his students that "Dragon Wagging Tail" is a trick that throws chalk backwards, which is "Dragon Wagging Tail".This is a joke.When you designed it yourself, how did you not have a martial arts guide like martial arts movies? Jin Yong: I have read some books about martial arts.There are diagrams and text descriptions.For example, when writing about boxing, I will also refer to some books about boxing, read those movements, and perform them myself.But these are just a few.Most of the moves in the novel are my own ideas.Look at what kind of action the character needs at that time, just find a suitable sentence in the idioms, or in the poems and the Four Books and Five Classics as the name of the move.Sometimes I can't find a suitable one, so I make up four words to match it.In short, the name of the move must be visualized, and that's fine.The general moves in Chinese martial arts are always visualized, that is, you can roughly imagine the moves based on the name. Lin Yiliang: I have another impression.In your martial arts novels, there are many factors that are not found in old Chinese novels, for example, the techniques of modern Western detective novels are also used in martial arts novels.Here I might as well give one or two examples.One is, for example, at first it seemed that Dongxie had murdered people with poisonous hands, but in the end it was the poisonous hands of West Poison, and along the way, not only Guo Jing was concealed, but even the readers were half-doubtful, and finally revealed it.The second example is Zhou Zhiruo. At first readers thought she was a decent character, but it was only when it was revealed that she was a villain.But as you explained about Zhou Zhiruo just now, it was intentional to show that the environment can make a person better or worse.The third example is the deaf-mute mother-in-law. At first, everyone didn't know who she was, but it was finally revealed that she was Yilin's mother.All of these, I think you seem to be influenced by a little bit of western detective novels. Jin Yong: Yes, I have always liked to read detective novels.The suspense and tension of detective novels are also two very important factors in martial arts novels.Therefore, when writing martial arts novels, if you can add a little detective novel skills, maybe you can arouse readers' interest even more. Lin Yiliang: So among modern western detective novel writers, who do you like the most? Jin Yong: Agatha Christie, I have read almost all of her novels.I think she is more intelligent and reasoning is very good.Do you like her too? Lin Yiliang: I also like Christie very much.Do you also like French detective novels such as those of Simenon? Jin Yong: I don't read many French detective novels, but I think they like to add some other elements to the detective novels, which are not quite like detective novels. Lin Yiliang: Let's start with detective novels. I think you have read a lot of other literary works. Who is your favorite author? Jin Yong: The ones I like are all related to the industry, such as Scott and Alexandre Dumas.They do not have a high status in the British and French literary circles, but I personally like to read this kind of thrilling novels with strong conflicts.And Stevenson, like it too.Their style is particularly attractive to me. Lin Yiliang: Who are you most influenced by? Wang Jingxi: Of course it is a master. (audience laughs) Jin Yong: Just kidding, I dare not take it. Lin Yiliang: Maybe I realized it myself. (Laughs) Jin Yong (laughs): Then I dare not talk about it.In fact, although martial arts novels have a little bit of literary meaning, they are basically entertaining readings, and it is better not to compare them with formal literary works.But it doesn't matter if you talk with old friends. Lin Yiliang: Just now you said that when reading previous martial arts novels, you first read "Woman of the Wild River" and "Legend of Heroes of the River and Lake", and then Bai Yu, so what about "Huanzhu Zhuzhuzhu"?do you like him? Quan Yong: I also like Huanzhu. His imagination is very rich, but I don't like his writing very much. Wang Jingxi: Is Huanzhu too deeply influenced by old novels? Jin Yong: No, old novels also have good writing.The main reason is that his writing is too wordy, sometimes a sentence can write a whole page, I don't like these. Lin Yiliang: At that time we were in China, reading martial arts novels, we were divided into two factions, one was the Baiyu faction, and the other was the Pearl Returning faction.Everyone is arguing there.Personally, I prefer Huanzhu to Baiyu.Bai Yu wanted to follow Lu Xun's new literary route, but couldn't, so he changed his career to write martial arts novels.The disadvantage of Returning the Pearl is that it took too long, and the relationship with the manuscript fee, I think (audience laughs).For example, "Swordsman of Shushan" was dragged on for too long.There are a few short ones, which are very good, for example, they are relatively complete. Now, go back to your own novel.Since you started writing martial arts novels until now, you have written several to ten novels in total. Which one is your favorite?But before you answer, I want to give you a limit.Because, for example, when you interview a director or an actor or actress, and you ask them which play they like best, they always say, the latest one. (Laughs) Jin Yong: From the standpoint of a writer, I must say that it is the oldest one for the sake of sales (audience laughs).If you have to say, which one is your favorite, it's really hard to say... Wang Jingxi: Then we changed the way to ask, that is, when you wrote these martial arts novels, which one did you get the most satisfaction from? Jin Yong: I think I can only say who are my favorite people.Among the characters I created, I like Yang Guo and Qiao Feng more, and I have the greatest sympathy for them. Lin Yiliang: Yes, Yang Guo's experience and state of mind do have a kind of desolation, which makes people feel very sympathetic to him. Jin Yong: As for novels, I don’t think I’ve been very successful in writing them. I often procrastinate and procrastinate for too long.Too much unnecessary and never embellished.Originally, even the roughest works of art have to be retouched after they are completed. I write a paragraph every day like this and never retouch, which is actually very wrong.It is a craftsman who makes a handicraft, and when it is sold, it must be modified.If there is a chance in the future, it is really necessary to make major revisions before republishing.So if you ask me which novel is my favorite, it's really hard to answer.There may be only one of them, which is more thoughtful in structure.Probably because of the short relationship, there is still a bit of a coherent taste.Everything else is too long. Lin Yiliang: Now there is another question, but you don't have to answer it, because it may involve trade secrets.That is, is it acceptable to write martial arts novels in terms of remuneration and income? Jin Yong: This question can be answered, but you may not be satisfied with my answer, because I am a special exception.Now "Ming Pao" is run by myself, and I only write articles for "Ming Pao", and "Xin Ming Daily" in Singapore and Malaysia is also co-founded by me and local people.It’s just that writing martial arts novels can help increase sales, so it is necessary to write a paragraph in my own newspaper every day, and I must write it, so the remuneration is a bit different from the general situation, and the newspaper gives me very little.Assuming that the newspaper has nothing to do with me, I will definitely not write (audience laughs).I am writing it now for entertainment, but after writing ten parts, the entertainment is also very poor.Maybe I have to stop writing for a few years before continuing to write.Now there are fewer and fewer elements for entertaining myself, mainly for entertaining readers. Lin Yiliang: But I can't agree with you.I think your latest is actually reaching a new peak.We certainly hope that you can continue to write, and you can't rest for three or five years.Also about, I think the portrayal of the characters and the development of the plot, in some places, are too similar.Maybe this is your first novel, so it hasn't reached the level of your own style, I don't know what you think? Jin Yong: Before writing, I never wrote any novels, nor did I write any short stories.At that time, not only would I be influenced by literature, but in fact I would also be influenced by many foreign and Chinese novels.Sometimes I don't know how to write well, and unconsciously, I will imitate others.There are also places to imitate, and there are also imitations.I think you must have seen that Chen Jialuo's girl fed him food and copied it.If you are an expert in research, you will definitely say that the copying is not good. Lin Yiliang: I don't know if you know it yourself, but in the United States, there are many places where the "Jin Yong Society" has been established.Chinese university professors and students all participated.I think the main reasons are as follows: First, your novels often talk about the spirit and realm of Chinese Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism.The second point is that it often talks about the traditional moral standards of Chinese culture: loyalty, filial piety, benevolence, and righteousness.The third point is that your writing still retains the advantages of Chinese characters. It is very Chinese, and it is not too Westernized like general literary and artistic sentences. This is particularly familiar to Chinese people in foreign lands.In this case, I think you should keep writing. Jin Yong: I am really embarrassed to talk about this matter.It is really unbearable for some friends to praise something that is purely for entertaining oneself and readers.I find it difficult to continue.Although it is necessary for the newspaper.Some readers are used to it, and want to read a paragraph every day.But every time I write an additional book, I find it more difficult to come up with some characters, plots, etc. that are not the same as before.I want to try and see if I can go some new routes. Lin Yiliang: Then I want to tell a story.A good friend of mine, Xia Ji'an, unfortunately passed away in the United States.He also likes reading martial arts novels very much.Before you wrote martial arts novels, he told me that there is great potential for martial arts novels, because no one has ever written them well.He said that if there is really no other way in the future, he will definitely find a way to write martial arts novels.Later, in Taiwan, someone suddenly showed him yours, and he wrote to me and said, "The real man has appeared, so I had no choice but to go to Fuyu." (Everyone laughs) Later he went to the United States. up.So, from this standpoint, no matter what you personally think your novels are, let’s talk about general martial arts novels.In your opinion, martial arts novels, whether they are entertaining novels or as a form of literary works, what is their future? Quan Yong: Mr. Xia Ji'an, has always been my best friend.The last time Professor Chen Shixiang passed through Hong Kong from Japan and asked me to have lunch. He said that Mr. Xia Ji'an admired my works very much, so he wanted to meet me and tell me about it.But it's a pity that I never had the chance to see Mr. Xia once, and I didn't even have the chance to communicate.Mr. Chen told me that Mr. Xia originally chose a Christmas card and wanted to give it to me, because I have four villains in the house, three men and one woman, so he chose a card with three doctors on it. Seeing the Virgin Mary's Christmas card, the three magi were extremely ugly, so he called them the Four Great Evils.He wrote it, but somehow never sent it, so I'm sorry that he didn't even receive a single word.Mr. Xia and Mr. Chen used to be people who studied literature. They valued my indecent works. I felt very honored and embarrassed at the same time.Martial arts novels themselves have traditionally been entertaining, and until now it seems that no works of great value have appeared. Wang Jingxi: But was it originally an entertainment work?However, its literary value cannot be denied now. Jin Yong: Yes, the form of the work itself does not matter much.Good works can come out in any form.However, martial arts novels have not produced any good works until now, unless they develop for a long time in the future. After decades, when many really good works come out, then maybe people may change their minds and think that martial arts novels can also become literature. a form ofNow that the time is still short, it is difficult to be sure of it, and it can only be said that it is also possible. Lin Yiliang: Although this conclusion is conservative, it is still an optimistic one. Jin Yong: I think any art form is very rough when it first develops.Like Shakespeare's works, when they were first performed on the British stage, they were also very simple, and they were only performed for people in the market.The famous Globe Theater is very popular.All of a sudden, a few great talents came out, and they improved the rough form that everyone looked down upon.If in the next fifty or sixty years, one or two talented scholars emerge suddenly in martial arts novels, raising their status, this is of course also possible. Wang Jingxi: I thought that since writing martial arts novels involves imagination, characterization, outlook on life, etc., it already has the conditions and factors necessary for literary works.We can say that this form is immature, but its potential cannot be denied.In the past, many British novels, such as Tom Jones, were originally written for entertainment?Now none of us can deny its literary value.Therefore, just now Mr. Jin Yong said very modestly that until now there have been no good works of martial arts novels. Let’s see if there are talented people who will come out in the next 50 or 60 years to raise its status. At the same time, let’s accept his statement: that is, martial arts novels, as a form of literary works, are undoubtedly immature at present, but we cannot deny the possibility of its future. Lu Li: Perhaps there is a question to be decided now, that is, are Jin Yong's novels already literary works, or not? Wang Jingxi: Hahahaha!Very good, then let Mr. Lin Yiliang be a judge. Lin Yiliang: Just now Jin Yong himself said that martial arts novels are entertainment works.This is very similar in nature to foreign detective novels and even exciting works in a broad sense.This kind of work is limited by its own nature. If we look at it from the perspective of "pure literature", we must admit that they are literary works, which is undoubtedly a bit problematic.For example, Agatha Christie's detective novels are so well written, do you think her world-class detective novels are literary works?Another example is Dorothy Sayers, who also wrote some detective novels with good writing, good style, and extremely successful characterization. Do we count these world-class detective novels as literary works?I think the main problem lies in the starting point.When the author writes, if his starting point is only to entertain readers, then no matter how successful his work is, it is difficult to decide whether the work itself can surpass the limitation of entertainment form and become a literary work.For example, you mentioned Tom Jones just now. I personally thought that when I first wrote this novel, his starting point was not simply to entertain readers.At that time, he already had something to say, and expressed a kind of inner criticism of this society through the surface of laughing and scolding very seriously.It is precisely because "the paper is full of absurd words and a handful of bitter tears that the author is insane, who can understand the meaning" can stand out and become a literary work handed down by later generations. Wang Jingxi: Very good, then let's use an author's moral sense of the times and his sensitivity to good and evil as a criterion for judging.May I ask Mr. Jin Yong, in your own works, have you tried to put some of your own moral sense, outlook on life, and criticism of this era while entertaining readers? Jin Yong: Recently, there are also attempts to try this.However, Mr. Lin Yiliang is right. Martial arts novels are originally a kind of entertainment. No matter how successful the work is, it is really a question of whether the work can actually surpass the limitations of its form itself.You can write it like this, and you have to accept it from the reader.If the people who read it don’t regard it as a serious work, and the writers don’t regard it as a serious work to write it, it’s always a child’s play, but I try to add some meaningful words to this play. The thought of things, sometimes even I find it amusing.Usually when famous foreign writers write provocative things, they always write with their names changed. Lin Yiliang: Maybe we can ask Wang Jingxi another question.Just to ask again, do you think the current world-class detective novels are literary works? Wang Jingxi: If this detective novel can not only be well written, but also have something to say, beyond its own limitations, of course we should regard it as a literary work.Maybe the author himself can't decide, maybe the author doesn't think that his work has surpassed the limit of detective novels, but those who write the history of literature in the future will always know.Conversely, there are some novelists who think they are very serious. They think they have written some very serious literary works, and they are even very appreciated and welcomed by contemporary readers. However, after decades, no one recognizes his status. There are also. Lin Yiliang: This is what I was waiting for.Everything has to wait for time to prove, and it will be decided in the future.Jin Yong said just now that martial arts novels will have to wait 50 to 60 years for one or two great talents to elevate the status of martial arts novels.So is Jin Yong himself such a talented man?We don't know, the most reasonable way is that we also have to wait 50 or 60 years, and then a talented person will appear to decide this issue.exactly: If you want to know what happened next, let's listen to the next chapter.