Jean-François LeVille (hereafter referred to as Jean-François) - I think the first thing we must stress is that neither you nor I ever had the idea to write this book.This book was suggested to us by some publishers.Knowing your experience and our kinship, they thought it would be interesting for us to compare our views.So I want to make it clear that, originally, you had done some outstanding higher scientific research in biology; you were one of the students of François Jacobs; Faculty work for many years; you defended your doctoral thesis at the Ecole Polytechnique in front of a jury that included François Jacobs and other eminent biologists, which resulted in your PhD And the usual "very pertinent" comments.Therefore, the interest in the series of talks we are about to have has to do with the fact that a person like you, who received the highest level of scientific education in Europe, that is, in the West, subsequently, or at the same time, turned to the Buddhist Philosophy, or rather this religion, originated in the East.Rather, you turn to it not to find in it an existential supplement, nor a spiritual addition to a career that will proceed normally by Western standards, but, to abandon this career, to utterly Get involved in Buddhist practice.So, my first question is: "When, and why, did this decision start in your mind?"

① Born in 1920, French doctor and biochemist, won the Nobel Prize in Medicine together with Andre Lwoff and Jacques Monod in 1965. Mathieu Ricard (hereinafter referred to as Mathieu) - the scientific career I have had is the result of a passion for discovery.What I have done since then is not in the slightest a disapproval of scientific research - which is, in many ways, welcome - but a validation that scientific research cannot solve the problem of survival. basic question.In short, science, although very interesting in itself, is not enough to give my life a meaning.I finally saw the research I experienced as an infinite dispersion in minute things, and I considered that I could no longer devote my life fully to it.

At the same time, this change arose out of a growing interest in spiritual life.At first, this interest was not clearly expressed in my mind, because I had a completely secular education and never practiced Christianity.But when I enter a church, or meet a priest, I feel a sense of awe from without.But I am completely ignorant of religion itself. Also, in my youth I read some works on various spiritual traditions.There is about Christianity, Hinduism, Sufi teachings, but very little about Buddhism.Because at that time, in the sixties, there were very few authentic translations of Buddhist scriptures.The treatises and translations that existed at the time echoed clumsily in the monstrous way in which Buddhism was understood in the West in the last century, namely as a nihilistic philosophy that preached indifference to the world.Through my uncle, the navigator Jacques-Yves Letoumoulin, I again discovered the writings of René Guenon.All this arouses and nourishes a kind of intellectual curiosity about spirituality, although this curiosity does not point to anything concrete.

① Born in 1886 and died in 1951, a French philosopher who has conducted in-depth research on some major mysterious documents of Hinduism, Taoism and Islam.Author of "Oriental Metaphysics" and other books. Jean-François—I'll interrupt you to elaborate a little bit on René Guinon's work.This is a French author who has mainly written on which Eastern philosophies?I read his books at the time, but my recollection of his work is inexact. Mathieu -- he wrote about twenty books on Eastern and Western spiritual traditions, on the fundamental unity of all metaphysical traditions.There are mainly "East and West", "The Crisis of the Modern World" and "Man and its Variations According to Vedanta". ) or the evolution of the realization of divinity within itself.But all of this seemed very sensible to me at the time.

Jean-François—in what sense is it sensible? Mathieu - These meaningful books did not bring me any inner transformation (transformation interieure) except that they brought me profound satisfaction and spiritual opening. Jean-François—then at what age did you read these books, Mathieu - smell ... when he was almost fifteen years old.I also read some of Ramana Mahalsh's conversations at the time.This is an Indian sage who is said to have attained an inner awareness of the ultimate nature of the spirit, non-dualite.However, it was in 1966 that I started my interest in Buddhism... Jean-François - you were twenty years old.

Mathieu - I was still at the Polytechnic Institute, just about to enter the Pasteur Institute. At that time, I was in a film editing class and watched a film about those Tibetans made by a friend Arnaud Dejardin. Master movie.Arnault spent several months on two trips with an excellent interpreter, went deep into the hidden lives of those masters, and photographed their lives.These movies are very touching.During the same period another friend, Dr. LeBoyer, also returned from Darjeeling, where he met several of these philosophers.I had just finished my semester passing exams and had a six-month break before committing to research.I want to take a big trip.It was the age of the "hippies," who drove two-horsepower Citroen cars or hailed rides through Turkey, Iran, Afghanistan and Pakistan on their way to India.I was still attracted to martial arts and wanted to go to Japan.

①The Indian city is the trading market for Sikkim, Tibet, Bhutan and India.It was established by the British in 1816 as the capital of the Indian state of Bengal. But seeing the images brought back by Arnault and Frédéric LeBoyer, listening to these friends and hearing their descriptions of what happened in the Himalayas... all this made me decide to go there, instead of going elsewhere. Jean-François—then, the film of Arno Dejardin. Mathieu - there are many parts, "Tibetan Mission" and "Peaceful Land Himalayas" (including "Children of Wisdom" and "Lake of Yogis"), a total of four hours.People watch these spiritual masters for a long time in these movies...their appearance, the way they talk, the way they teach people.This is a living and very instructive testimonial.

Jean-François - Were the films televised? Mathieu - Since 1966, it has been rebroadcast many times and has recently been republished on videotape.This is some unusual data. It is a fact, perhaps unprecedented in human history, that 20 percent of the population of Tibet is in religious orders, monks, nuns, monks in caves, scholars teaching in monasteries.Spiritual practice is there undisputedly the primary purpose of existence, and even secular people themselves consider their daily activities, however indispensable, to be secondary to spiritual life.The whole culture is thus concentrated in the spiritual life.

Jean-François - I agree with you...Arnaud Dejardin's film.You say they give you a very strong personal feeling.Can you analyze and describe this feeling? Mathieu – I had this feeling at the time: I felt like I was seeing people who were themselves images of what they were teaching...they looked so compelling.I couldn't quite grasp why at the time, but what shocked me the most was that they were saints, perfect men, and philosophers who fit our ideals; and such people are obviously almost no longer found in the West.This is my picture of St. François of Arziz, or the great philosopher of antiquity.This picture became a dead letter for me at the time: I could not meet Socrates, listen to a speech by Plato, sit at the feet of St. François of Assisi!At this time, some people suddenly appeared, and they seemed to be living examples of wisdom.Then I said to myself: "If it is possible to achieve perfection in man, it must be so."

①St. Francesco, formerly translated as St. Francis, Italian priest, founder of the Catholic Church of San Franciscans.Born in Assisi, Italy in 1181 or 1182, died in 1226.Revered as the patron saint of Italy by later generations. Jean-François - Regarding your definition, I was just about to say to you that it is almost a cliché to emphasize the characteristic of ancient philosophy ... that is, the unity of theory and practice.For the ancient philosophers, philosophy was not simply a knowledge transfer, a theory, an explanation of the world or life.It is a way of being (maniere detre).His philosophy, he and his students realized it in their existence, at least as much as they theorized it in their own discourse.In these Tibetans, what impresses you from the very beginning is an approach (approche), which is also closely related to the origins of Western philosophy.Moreover, it is for this reason that until the end of the Roman Empire philosophers played the role of confidant, spiritual master, guide, moral comforter, helpful companion, etc. The age of Ernest Renan called the "Dynasty of the Philosophers."This is an attitude that used to exist in the West: not content to be taught, but to become a reflection of what was taught, by the very way of being itself.This thing has been said, and in practice, whether it has been realized as perfectly as possible is another question... This understanding of philosophy is also similar to some religions in many cases.Ancient philosophy most often embraced this character as a form of personal happiness.This is also found among the Epicureans (although in modern usage "Epicurean" conjures up an indifference to all spiritual aspects).There is always this double necessity of formulating a doctrine and at the same time being the incarnation of that doctrine.At the stage of ancient philosophy there was no fundamental difference from the East.

① That is, Marcus Aurelius (Marcus Aurelius), born in 121 AD and died in 180, was the emperor of the Antoninus Dynasty of the Roman Empire and reigned since 161 AD.During his reign, a long war was waged against the barbarians who threatened the Roman Empire.With Stoic wisdom.Known for his thrift and strong interest in philosophy and literature.Author of "Introspection" written in Greek. Mathieu - that's pretty much it, except that the Tibetan masters were not trying to formulate a doctrine, but to be the faithful and complete custodians of a thousand-year-old tradition.Regardless, it is a comfort to me to confirm that there is still a tradition that is alive, accessible, and offered to people like a showcase of good things.After an intellectual journey in books, I can now engage in a real kind of travel. Jean-François - pardon me for interrupting... what beautiful things?What do you understand about this doctrine?It is not enough to be the personification of a doctrine yourself, one must also make the doctrine have some value! Mathieu - I didn't have any idea about Buddhism at that time, and just seeing these philosophers - although only a little thing can be revealed through a movie - gave me a premonition of a profoundly enlightening perfection .It is a source of hope seen through contrast.In the environment in which I grew up, I met philosophers, thinkers, dramatists because of you; artists and poets because of my mother, the painter Jeanne Letourin... For example, André Andre Breton; thanks to my uncle Jacques-Yves Letourmein I met some famous explorers; Scholars who gave lectures at the Faculty of Virtue.I was thus led to associate with a man of intimidating character in many ways.But, at the same time, the brilliance which they revealed in their disciplines did not necessarily give rise to what we call . . . perfection humaine.Their talent, their capacity for knowledge and craft does not thereby make them good human beings.A great poet may be a liar; a great scholar, in himself, an unfortunate man; an artist, conceited.All combinations, good or bad, are possible. ①As the ex-wife of Jean-François Leville, under the influence of her son, she converted to Buddhism and became one of the earliest nuns in France. ②French writer, surrealist poet.Born in 1896 and died in 1966. Jean-François—and I remember, at that time you also loved music, great literature, photography, ornithology.You wrote a book on animal migrations when you were twenty-two, and throughout a period of your life you were strongly involved in music. Mathieu - yes... I met Igor Stravinsky and other great musicians.I had the opportunity to stand with the people who inspired admiration in the West, to be able to fantasize and ask myself, "Do I want this? Do I want to be like them?" I was Have that feeling of not overeating, because despite my admiration, I can't help but notice that the talents these people show in special fields don't lead to the perfection of the simplest of people, such as altruism, kindness, loyalty .On the contrary, these films, these photos, made me discover something more, and it drew me to these Tibetan masters; their way of life seemed to be a reflection of what they taught.So, I set out to discover... This same unbuttoning happened to another friend.Christian Bruyard, who was preparing for his normal school exams, heard on the radio the last words of a radio program in which Arnaud Dejardin said something like this: "I I believe that the last batch of great philosophers, living examples of spirituality, are these Tibetan masters living in the Himalayas of India." At this same moment, he also made up his mind to make this trip. ①The author uses a mechanical word "unbutton" here, which originally means to untie the interrelated hooks or buckles on the mechanical parts, and here it is a vivid metaphor for uncoupling from the Western tradition. So, I took a very cheap plane and set off to India.I didn't actually speak English at the time!You have always thought it more important for me to learn German, Greek, and Latin, languages ​​which are more difficult than English, and you told me that the first steps in English would be extremely easy.This was confirmed...but by then I had forgotten about German and other foreign languages.I arrived in Delhi with a small dictionary and a book of Asimilles, found my way with great difficulty, bought a train ticket to Darjeeling, and finally saw the most beautiful scenery in the Himalayas. mountain peak.I have the address of a Jesuit priest to whom Dr. LeBoyer entrusted a sum of money to support a Tibetan master, Kangyuer Rinpochen, who arrived in India some years ago ②.He was living in extreme poverty, living in a small wooden hut with his family and carrying all the books he had brought from Tibet.It so happened that the master's son came to collect this small monthly stipend on the day after my arrival.It was Kangyuer Rinpochen's son who brought me to his father.For three weeks, I simply confronted him...it was very impressive.He was seventy years old.He sat with his back to a window, and a sea of ​​clouds spread outside the window... I sat facing him all day long, and I felt that I was what people call a "mediter" (mediter), that is, I was in front of him. Simply meditate.I got some teachings, but pretty much nothing.His son speaks English and I barely speak English.It is his person, his presence that impresses me... the depth, the power, the serenity that emanates from him and opens my heart. ① Refers to the foreign language courses published by the French company Assimil, which generally compare foreign languages ​​with French, from the shallower to the deeper. ② Rinpoqin is a transliteration of Tibetan rinpotche, which means treasure and precious thing.It was later used as an honorific title for people. Then, I continued my journey.I went to Kashmir.In India I fell ill with typhoid and I had to go back... I got off the plane while connecting in Damascus and I said to myself that it would be foolish not to see all these countries, so I continued by rail and road travel.I saw the mausoleum of the great holy Sufi ibn Arabi, the castle of the crusader knights, the mosques of Istanbul.I ended my trip by waving a car to the monastery in Turnu.There I entered the fresh air of the quiet, empty monastery, outside which the streets were clogged with cars returning from their August vacation.From there, I wearily boarded a train bound for Paris.Then there was a great physical upheaval and a great inner discovery.It was only after returning from India—in my first year at the Pasteur Institute—that I realized the importance of meeting my master.I keep thinking about his qualities.I realized that there was a truth here which was suited to enlightening my life and giving it meaning, even though I could not express it then. ①Islamic Sufi theologian.Born in Murcia, Spain in 1165, died in Damascus in 1240.In-depth study of the neo-Platonism theory, trying to answer the long-standing debates on "determinism" and "free will theory", "goodness" and "evil", "the unity of Allah" and "diversity of all things in the universe" through mysticism The proposition. Developed mysticism into a systematic "pantheism" thinking, and regarded objective things and human free will as the manifestation of the essence and attributes of "Allah". Created the theory of "monism". Mainly engaged in the research of theology and There are many books on teaching, and the most influential ones are "The Inspiration of Mecca" and "The Collection of Proverbs". Jean-François—thus we may say that this great change (modificatlon)—I use the word "change" in order not to use the word "conversion" prematurely—was not caused by A deeper intellectual, doctrinal, and philosophical understanding of the Buddhist scriptures themselves, but primarily, and primarily, a personal interaction. Mathieu - Exactly.Research has only recently become available. Jean-François - At that time, there were many young people from the West, European and American, traveling to and from India? Mathieu—this is the year before May 1968.All these young men were looking for something different, smoking marijuana... Some were chasing spiritual studies, visiting ashrams; others exploring the Himalayas.Everyone is looking left and right.They often exchanged ideas and messages: "I met some marvelous person somewhere... I saw some marvelous scenery in Sikkim... I met some music master in Benales, in South India Met a certain yoga guru." Etc.It was a time when people doubted everything, and people probed -- not only in books but in reality -- by going to meet the masters, by studying Indian classical music and dance for a whole year or two - Everything offered to people in India, in the Himalayas... Jean-François—So, did a large proportion of these Western youths in search of a new spirituality go to Darjeeling? Mathieu - in that era, very few.There were maybe a few dozen in the sixties and seventies.Later, as time passed, interest in Tibetan masters and their education increased.In 1971, the first Tibetan masters traveled to the West—to France, to America.Gradually, hundreds, then thousands, of Westerners studied and studied with them.Many of these Westerners spent years in the Himalayas with Tibetan masters, or came to meet them regularly. Let's go back to the question you raised earlier.My interest is not based on the study of Buddhism.Neither on my first trip nor on the next two or three trips did my interest look like this.I went back to India to meet my master again.Of course, I received some basic spiritual teachings from him, but never a systematic teaching on Buddhism.He said to me: "There is a lot of interest in Buddhism, but one should avoid getting lost in a purely theoretical or bookish study; in which one risks forgetting about spiritual practice, which is the center of Buddhism and of all inner transformation." Yet facing him, I intuitively discovered one of the foundations of the teacher-student relationship, which is to bring my own spirit into harmony with that of the master.It is called "mixing one's spirit with the master's spirit"; for the master's spirit is "knowledge," and ours is confusion.Thus, it is through this "spiritual union" that the transition from confusion to awareness takes place.This process of pure contemplation forms one of the key points of Tibetan Buddhist practice. Jean-François - What you call knowledge, then, is ... the preliminary study of a religious teaching. Mathieu - no, this is the result of inner transformation.In Buddhism, what people call cognition is the clarification (dlucidation) of the nature of the phenomenal world (monde phenomenon), of the spiritual nature.what are wewhat is the worldThis is ultimately, and above all, a contemplation directe of absolute truth beyond conception.This is the most fundamental aspect of cognition. Jean-François - So, this is an outstanding philosophical question? Mathieu—exactly. Jean-François – This is the question that philosophy asks before the invention of science, that is to say, at a time when philosophy wants to know everything.For the various philosophies of antiquity up to the birth of modern physics in the seventeenth century included knowledge of the material world, knowledge of the animate world, morality, knowledge of man himself and knowledge of the beyond (lau-del a), The knowledge of the divine (la divine), which may be personal, as in Aristotle, may be Nature itself, as in the Stoics or in As in Spinoza's theory.This generally comprehensive doctrine of realite was later considered to be no longer seriously possible.We will come back to this issue. Also, in the word "know" there is another aspect.This is what I will call the Socratic spirit.For Socrates, wisdom (sagesse) is the result of knowledge (science).In his view, there is no instinctive intelligence or morality.Everything comes from knowing.It is from knowledge that wisdom and morality branch off.The philosophies of antiquity are those in which the way to a certain form of wisdom and happiness, to what is called the "supreme good"—that is to say, by The assimilation of human beings, in order to achieve a thorough balance - from a scientific understanding, from what the ancients regarded as a scientific understanding.Is this roughly the characteristic of Buddhism when you discovered it?When your master told you that the so-called understanding is to realize the ultimate nature of things, I dare say that this understanding is a grand plan!Because it includes at the same time the knowledge of all phenomena in the external world, of yourself, and perhaps of the supernatural. Mathieu – Buddhism does include the study of traditional sciences such as medicine, languages, grammar, poetry, astronomical calculations (mainly eclipse of the sun and moon) and astrological calculations, handicrafts and arts.Plant and mineral based Tibetan medicine required years of study and it is said that in the past Tibetan surgeons were able to perform cataract surgery with the aid of a gold scalpel, although this surgery is now forgotten.The "primary" science, however, is the knowledge of oneself and of reality, since the fundamental question is: "What is the nature of the world of appearances, the nature of thought?" What is the key?Where does the pain come from?What is ignorance?What is spiritual realization?What is perfection? "What people call recognition is a discovery of this kind. Jean-François—wasn't the original motive the escape from pain? Mathieu - Suffering is the result of ignorance.It is therefore ignorance that should be driven away.And ignorance, in essence, is the attachment (lattachement) to the "I" and to the solidity of phenomena.Alleviating the present suffering of others is an obligation, but it is not sufficient; the cause of the suffering itself must be healed.But I'll say it again, all of that wasn't clear to me at the time.I said to myself at that time: "There is no smoke without fire. When I saw my master, his appearance, his way of speaking, his way of acting, his personality...all these things convinced me in my heart that there was something here. Substantial stuff that I wish to delve into. There is a source of revelation, a source of reliability, a perfection that I wish to know." As I traveled more—I went there five or six times before settling in India ——I realize that when I am around my master, I tend to forget about the Pasteur Institute, which represents my life in Europe; and when I am at the Pasteur Institute, my mind flies to the Himalayas.So, I made a decision that I have never regretted: to be where I want to be! At that time, I had finished my research project, and Professor Jacob wanted to send me to America to pursue a new research topic; like many researchers of that period, he had switched from the study of bacteria to the study of bacteria. The study of animal cells, as this is a broader field of study that has revolutionized cell biology.I said to myself that I was done with this life: I had published some papers on my five years of research; Cobb's investment, his acceptance of me into his lab...it's kind of a turn in my research anyway...I can choose another path, neither destroying anything nor making those who have helped I am disappointed until the person who finished the doctoral dissertation.I can live out my personal aspirations with a clear conscience.Besides, my master Kang Yuerwei Bochen always asked me to end the research I had been doing.Actually, I'm not speeding things up.From 1967 to 1972, I waited for many years before settling in the Himalayas.It was at this moment that I made the decision and informed François Jacob and you of my decision to go to the Himalayas instead of to America, and I realized that this is exactly what I wished to do, that I should Do it in my youth instead of regretting not choosing this path at fifty. Jean-François—but you never felt that the two things were reconcilable? Mathieu - There is no fundamental incompatibility between science and spiritual life, but one is more important to me than the other.In fact, one cannot sit between two chairs all the time, or sew with a needle that is pointed at both ends.I no longer want to divide up my time, I want to devote it entirely to what seems to me to be the main thing.Later, I realized that my scientific training, primarily its rigorous concern, was perfectly reconcilable with an approach (lapproche) to Buddhist metaphysics and to Buddhist practice.At no time during the twenty-five years that followed did I have a difficult time with what I understand as the scientific spirit, which is the search for truth. Jean-François - OK... I understand that you apply the same rigor you used earlier to the study of the philosophy and history of Buddhism, the philosophy and history of Buddhist scriptures, and so on.However, during the last thirty years, the study of molecular biology has been the field with the most important discoveries in the history of science.You are not participating in this study.You could have attended. Mathieu - Biology is perfectly fine without me.There is no shortage of researchers on this planet.The real problem is establishing a hierarchy of priorities within my being.It was then that I felt more and more acutely that I was not using my life's potential as well as I could, and that my life was weathering day by day.To me, a great deal of scientific knowledge has become "a larger contribution to a smaller need." Jean-François - what you did afterwards allowed you to delve into a teaching that was born many centuries before our own time, but it did not bring new insights, as did your participation in molecular Biological research has the potential to do that.Of course, I am not saying that some new discoveries are absolutely necessary in order to be successful in one's life.I mean, at the stage of research you had reached, your dissertation was both a conclusion and a starting point for much more important research, and you were poised to take part in one of the most extraordinary intellectual and scientific expeditions in human history— — as evidenced by recent discoveries in molecular biology — all the conditions that should exist. Mathieu - Note that with Buddhism it is not to stir up the dust of an ancient and outdated teaching; spiritual study, when it brings about a real inner transformation, is a very vital study, It has a sense of freshness that is constantly updated.A metaphysical tradition like Buddhism does not "age" since it addresses the most fundamental questions of existence.More often than not in history, scientific theories naturally age and are constantly replaced by other theories. Jean-François—Yes, but they were replaced by other theories for good reason: because knowledge advanced, because new facts were observed, because experience adjudicated hypotheses. Mathieu – Biology and theoretical physics have indeed led to some unusual insights about the origin of life and the formation of the universe.But will these insights clarify the underlying mechanisms of happiness and pain?The object of concern should not be overlooked.Knowing the shape and precise dimensions of the earth is an indisputable advance, but whether the earth is round or flat makes little difference to the meaning of existence.No matter how much medical progress may be made, people can only temporarily alleviate suffering, which is constantly reappearing and culminating in death.One quarrel, one war, can be prevented by men; but other quarrels and wars will occur if the spirit of man is not changed.On the contrary, isn't there a way to discover an inner peace that doesn't depend on health, power, success, money, sensual pleasures? Jean-François - I understand this very well, but I don't see where the two steps are incompatible.Biology, science, and in this case especially molecular biology, lead to solutions to many diseases and thus contribute to the reduction of human suffering.The intellectual satisfaction gained from discovering the fundamental mechanisms of life is a non-utilitarian satisfaction.Haven't you considered whether you can combine the two aspects you worry about? Mathieu – Buddhism is not against science.It sees science as an important but partial shadow of knowledge.So I didn't feel that need to dedicate as much effort to it and allocate my existence to it at the time.At that time I felt a bit like a caged bird with only one thought: "Give me freedom!" Jean-François - do you understand the current state of science? 马蒂厄——我带着更大的兴趣继续关注生物学方面的发现，虽然我现在并不将我每天的时间用于登录一个细菌的染色体遗传卡片——我曾在这件事上贡献了五年的研究时间。总体上看，近几十年来，成千研究人员的研究成果确实是令人激动的。但一个研究人员的一生，乃是在若于年的时间里，学习、研究这些研究领域的一个很独特的方面，一个错综复杂的事物的各种因素，这些因素集合在一起，呈现出一个物理学或生物学现象的清晰的图像。普通的研究者很少注视科学的整体画面，有时，一些巨大的努力只获得较小的成果，这时他便有一种挫折感。当然偶尔有一个研究者获得了重大的发现，比如说对脱氧核糖核酸的结构的发现…… 让-弗朗索瓦——还有双螺旋结构…… 马蒂厄——这些大大地回报了他的努力。但这是例外，所以，我不能将对科学研究的兴趣与对精神研究的兴趣相比较，精神研究每时每刻都带来一种满足，一种喜悦，就像一支箭径直飞向它的目标；每一瞬间都是珍贵的，都被尽可能好地利用。 让-弗朗索瓦——你随后做了什么？ 马蒂厄——整整七年我没有离开大吉岭。我在我师傅康玉尔仁波钦的身边一直生活到一九七五年他去世，然后我又在寺院上方的一个小隐修院中继续修行。就在那个时候，我遇到了我的第二个师傅狄尔戈·赫延采仁波钦。他来为康玉尔仁波钦主持丧仪。我还为复制和印刷大约五十卷非常罕见的藏文手稿，在德里住了一年。当我的朋友们正要在多尔多涅（Dordogne）开始传统性的三年隐居时，我问赫延采仁波钦我是不是应该去与他们相会。他回答我道：“只要我活着，你就一直在我身边学习。”我就这样在他身旁生活了十二年，听他的教诲，侍候他，陪伴他旅行。我于一九七九年成为和尚。在他身边度过的这些年构成我所能接受的最好的退省和最好的教诲，这是些不能忘记的年月，在这些年里我获得了一种内心的坚信，任何东西、任何人都不能将它夺走。 让-弗朗索瓦——你还在不丹生活过？ 马蒂厄——不丹是个山地王国，自佛教于八世纪被引人之后，它就一直避开了侵略。佛教之花就这样得以毫无障碍地在这里盛开，它的价值深深地扎根于不丹居民的精神里。赫延采仁波钦在不丹成为最受尊重的佛教大师，从国王而至最低下的农夫莫不对他尊敬。这也成了我生活在这个国家的特权。 现在，我要略为倒转一下问话的方向。你让我描述并解释我的履历，并且你也许还会使我再来谈这些。而你自己的经历如何？是什么使你希望进行这番谈话的？ 让-弗朗索瓦——对于像你这样的一种旅程感到好奇，这是自然的，因为这旅程包含着一种与你的生活、你的学业、你的文化归属仿佛为你划定的旅程的断然绝裂。我的经历则要古典得多，尽管，在我自身的文化内部并且与我最初接受到的教育相比，我也进行了一种与我这一代人的各种主流（courants majoritaires）的永久性的决裂，以及对周围的习俗思想的反叛；但我要再说一遍，这一切仍然是停留在我自己的文化的范围内。 马蒂厄——但是，是什么使你希望与我这样一个另一种文化的代表者进行讨论？ 让-弗朗索瓦——首先，这既是另一种文化又是同一种文化。远东的各种哲学属于全世界的遗产，尽管人们因为它们在我们这里、在专门研究者的圈子之外没有被足够地研究而会感到惋惜。当我十九岁开始高等教育时，我决心学习哲学而不是文学或历史。当时我对于后两种学科有着同样的喜好，如果我现在细想当时这样做的动机，这是因为那时我觉得哲学能够提供给我一把钥匙，去开启领导其他所有认识，其中包括文学和历史、甚至包括科学的认识。去开启一种认识，这认识同时又是一种智慧，也就是与一种道德相联系的生活的艺术。 马蒂厄——那么西方哲学没有给你这把钥匙？ 让-弗朗索瓦——我不能说完全如此。我宁愿说是我觉得它断然地背叛了它的使命，尤其是从十九世纪初以来。我在许多年里，直接接触本文，同时又与常规的现代经典版本——即使它是“再解释的”——的最终结论保持着距离，这之后，才自然地得出这一结论。我的最终感觉引导我写了我的第一本书《为什么是一些哲学家？ 》，它出版于一九五七年，获得了成功，或者，不管怎么说，是一种使我自己也惊讶的反响。它所造成的声响当然不全都是赞成，远不止如此，因为我当时都被哲学集团的受了伤害的吵嚷声震聋了。然而，论战的巨大规模迫使我将它继续下去，并在一本于一九六二年出版的、名为《虔信者们的阴谋》的书中回答我的论敌，这本书延伸了《为什么是一些哲学家？ ". 马蒂厄——可是，后来人们尤其将你视为政治作家。你怎样解释这种变形？ 让-弗朗索瓦——这不是一种变形，因为关于政治的思考一直就是哲学的一个分支。由于我刚刚出版了我的自传，我就不想在此讲述我的整个一生了。政治理论不仅一直属于哲学，而且自十八世纪、尤其是自十九世纪之后，它更是成了道德的主轴（ax。majeur）。启蒙时代的指导思想，以及更后来的马克思和列宁的科学社会主义的指导思想，其实也就是如此：幸福与正义的联合已不再是通过个体对智慧的追求，而是通过对社会的整体重建来实现。而要想建设一个新社会，必须预先彻底摧毁旧社会。正是在十八世纪末，革命的概念获得了它的现代意义。个人得救（saint personnel）从此便处于从属集体得救的地位。我想，在我们将要进行的谈话中，我们会再来展开讨论这个问题。此刻，我只想说，大概在一九六五年、一九七０年，我认为已看到了这个梦幻——它生出了嗓确我们这个二十世纪的那些巨大的极权主义——的不可救药的失败。我于一九七0年写了我的第一本可以称作具有普遍性质的政治著作（此前我也出版过两三本，但它们更专门地涉及法国），这就是《既非马克思亦非耶稣》（在美国出版时名为Without Marx or Jesus），这个标题包含了一种两方面的拒绝：对政治极权主义的拒绝和对宗教极权主义的拒绝。这本书引起一番震惊，因为我在书中主张，二十世纪的真正革命最终将是自由主义革命。此书获得世界性的成功。它在近一年的时间里处在美国的畅销书名单里（因为我在书中为美国式的“开放社会”辩护，以对抗各种形式的“封闭社会”）。它被翻译成大约十五种或更多种外文。我甚至有一本马达加斯加文的译本。 马蒂厄——这个成功在将你推人政治作家以及大型杂志的政治社论作者这个角色的同时，是不是使你远离了正确意义上所说的哲学？ 让-弗朗索瓦——它并没有使我远离。和《既非马克思亦非耶稣》一样，我后来主要的书提出一个在人类本性中根深蒂固的问题，一个属于所有时代的问题，即使我是借助当今的例证来谈论它，这也是一个属于所有时代的问题，何况我并不仅仅借助当今的事例。就这样，《极权诱惑》（一九七六年出版）以下面的问题为中心议题：在人类心中是不是存在着一种对于政治和知识奴役的秘密向往，这种向往越是伪装成对自由的追求，越是可恶。再如《无用的认识》（一九八八年出版）以这样一个谜为出发点：怎么会发生这样的事，不仅是在今天，而且是在它的整个历史中，人类竟会毫不犹豫地忽视它掌握的、能使它免除某些灾难的信息？它为什么这样仿佛是故意地、如此经常地奔向失败、痛苦和死亡？如果我没有弄错，这就是一些哲学问题。但是我不打算对你讲解我的全部著作。 马蒂厄——那么这些书也引起了和《既非马克思亦非耶稣》同样的国际兴趣？ 让-弗朗索瓦——显然是同样的，虽然根据各个国家而有些不同。所以《无用的认识》在美国的成功就小些，但一直是拉丁语国家——西班牙、葡萄牙和拉丁美洲，此外当然还有法国——的畅销书。一九八九年以后，铁幕的倒塌使得书籍和思想得以自由流通，在前共产主义国家里也是如此。但真正的现象不在这里。它在这个秘密中：拥有众多的读者并不表示人就被真正理解，也不表示人就能够影响现实，即使一个人能像我这样，除了书籍，还在国内国际新闻界掌握了一些讲台，可以向一个更加广大的公众透露和反复表达自己的思想。 马蒂厄——这个秘密，怎么解释？ 让-弗朗索瓦——如果我们能够完整解释它，我们也就能够治愈作为它的源头的精神疾病了。就是这个问题将我们带回到所谓的“初始的”哲学上，即以个人对远见和智慧的获得为目的的哲学上，简而言之，即我们谈话的中心话题上。