Chapter 138 Dialogue on "Life"

Wang Yu: After it was published, it attracted the attention of readers, and it also produced a relatively large response in the literary and art circles. Newspapers and periodicals across the country published many commentary articles. After reading your three novellas, I feel that each one has different degrees of progress in reflecting the depth and breadth of life.When you conceived, what specific ideas did you have? Lu Yao: When I wrote this work, I really didn't expect any repercussions.It’s not a matter of a day or two for me to write rural subjects, nor did I suddenly think of writing it.But I always felt that I was not prepared enough, and there were still many problems that I hadn't figured out, so I put off writing several times.However, if I didn't write it out, I always felt that those characters had impacted me. In 1981, I made up my mind to write it out.I just thought of expressing this life as best as possible.When the work was published, it received enthusiastic support from readers and received thousands of letters.I really don't want to say anything myself, mainly to hear the opinions of critics.

Wang Yu: When you write, you are actually constantly exploring life. When commentators talk about it, they can’t help but scratch their heads. Only you know the joys and sorrows of this exploration better. Lu Yao: Judging from the review articles published so far, the critics are still keen. They have basically seen all the connotations of this work, and I have not even realized some things.Inadequacies in the works they raise, some comments show value.Even those negative opinions are very helpful to me. Wang Yu: Yours, what impresses me the most is your grasp of the intricate and complicated life contradictions in the current transitional period.In the face of the current progress of the entire literary creation, this is also a very important issue.Of course it’s not just that, your three novellas all have outstanding performance on this issue. Although the first published and later won an award, "A Thrilling Scene", although some parts are unavoidably sparse, but for the ten years of catastrophe. The description of the complex state of piety mixed with fanaticism, confusion and impulsiveness, especially the exploration of the inner spiritual power of the protagonist, makes his character shine, and the content is relatively thick.The same is true of your "In Difficult Days". At such a difficult moment, in such a young man, a kind of unyielding, pure and pure character strength, contradicts and collides with the severe life around, echoing with tragedy tone.In the book, the various contradictions in this turning period are fully displayed from the fate of the characters and the inner activities of the characters, which are more profound and extensive than the previous two parts.You have mentioned in your speeches at several symposiums and in your articles that you need to write about intersections. Comrade Hu Adopting has also talked about this issue. I agree with this point of view very much.In the current transitional period of removing the old and clothing the new, all aspects of real life influence each other, interpenetrate, interpenetrate, and interweave, presenting a crisscross state. Writers must consider issues from such a perspective if they want to reflect this era.Based on my personal prejudice, some current works are thin, or narrow, or superficial, mainly because they are limited to a narrow scope of life. Writing about the countryside is the countryside, writing about the city is the city, and the unemployed youth is the unemployed youth. .Some of the better works also have a certain sense of life, but it is difficult to see the style of the times through the works, and often there is life but no time.Of course, there are also some works that only have the characteristics of the times and have no specific sense of life, and that is not acceptable.When you combine the two, I think you have your own thinking on reflecting conflicts.

Lu Yao: I think so in this regard.Life often presents complex forms, and some phenomena, contradictions and conflicts float on the surface and can be seen at a glance. Some writers are often attracted and confused by such superficial things, and many works describe these things.But sometimes the inner contradictions and conflicts in life cannot be seen clearly at once, and the work of a writer is mainly to get rid of the superficial things in life and drill into the depths of life, instead of being satisfied with expressing the superficial phenomena of life. In this way, the work can be written in depth.

Wang Yu: Your insight is very profound.When many writers go into life, they are suddenly attracted by the superficial phenomena of life, unable to restrain their enthusiasm, and without repeated thinking, digestion, and brewing, they often have too much description and not enough thinking, so it is difficult to go deep . Lu Yao: Like the rural production responsibility system, this is the current policy. There is a lot of anti-Central Committee members in the countryside and farmers. On the surface, farmers are getting richer, richer, and grainier. They want to buy things.But the work only stops at this step of description, writing that they have money, buy TV sets, fly high-end products, and describe how they got the money yesterday and spent it again. Of course, writing like this does not reflect the new changes in the countryside. But after all, it is not enough to reflect the extensive and far-reaching impact of the new policy.A writer should see that changes in rural economic policies have brought about changes in the entire rural life. This change is deeply manifested in people's spiritual and psychological changes, as well as changes in the relationship between people, and the old When contradictions are overcome, new contradictions arise again, and new contradictions promote the continuous reform of the system, changes in people's spiritual world, and new adjustments in the relationship between people.In short, the entire rural life is undergoing a new change and combination, and we should focus on these aspects.From the perspective of superficial phenomena, it is easy to write superficial and similar.I used to be like this myself, so the works I wrote were very superficial.Such works cannot arouse readers to think more deeply about life.Therefore, I think writers should dig deep into life and not be confused by the superficial things in life. The question you just mentioned about the intersection is a new contradictory state that I feel in real life.What I was aware of at the time was the intersection of urban and rural areas. Now it seems that with the reform of the system, various contradictions in life are showing a state of intersection.Not only between urban and rural areas, but also between various fronts in cities, between people in rural life, and in the spiritual world of people, the intersection of contradictions and conflicts is also intricate.The contradictions and conflicts of various ideas, as well as the intersection of contradictions between the young generation and the old generation, old ideas and new ideas are also relatively complicated.Writers should understand it from a broad range, get rid of the superficial phenomena of life, go deep into the deeper bottom and interior of life, and consider the intersection of the entire social contradiction in a relatively broad range. Many young writers' creations are I have considered it from this aspect, and I have also considered it from this aspect, but I have not done enough.

Wang Yu: From the present point of view, the contradictions displayed are not simple. Lu Yao: Looking back, some parts seem to be very unsatisfactory. As far as the theme requirements are concerned, this work should be displayed more broadly, and there are still some limitations.But as far as this work is concerned, it is very difficult to add something, and it can only be remedied in the future.The main thing is to have a deeper understanding of life. Wang Yu: It is also because of this that there are some different opinions on the evaluation.I thought that what you wrote was to strip away the appearance of life and explore the complex contradictions in life. Therefore, the theme of the book can be explained clearly in a single sentence.Judging from the connotation of the work, you are exploring the question of what kind of life path should be taken by the young generation at the intersection of various contradictions in the transition period.Gao Jialin's ideals and pursuits have the common characteristics of contemporary youth.But there is also the burden imposed on the younger generation by the sentimentality of history, and the fanatical and nihilistic things imposed on the younger generation by the ten-year catastrophe.These are all intertwined in Gao Jialin's body. Therefore, it is too simple to think that the question answered by the work is whether Gao Jialin should reform, whether Gao Jialin's people and views are correct or wrong.The themes should be intersecting, radiating from a main line to reflect all aspects of the life of the times.

Lu Yao: Most of the controversies in this area focus on Gao Jialin, which is very political.Regarding Gao Jialin, to be honest, I am also studying him.Because of this, I did not simply answer what kind of person this character is in my works. When it comes to the theme of the work, in the past, the theme was limited to a narrow range, so that people could see through it at a glance, which was a bit simplistic.Of course, it doesn't mean that readers can't see anything.I mean, the subject of the work is not a simple concept, because life itself is not a simple concept.Life is a complex complex.Works reflect life, and works that truly reflect life will not be simple concepts, but should have a complex tone just like the contradictions and conflicts in life itself.I wanted to make some explorations in this aspect, mainly in the case of Gao Jialin.As for the ideological nature of the work, I think that every part of the work is permeated with thoughts, rather than just a simple ideological conclusion in the work as a whole.The depth of a writer's understanding of life should permeate every corner of his work.

Wang Yu: Yes!Good question.When the reader reads the work, he should be able to arouse his thinking everywhere, rather than prove the correctness or fallacy of a certain conclusion after reading the work. Lu Yao: That's right.Works like Tolstoy will arouse readers' deep thinking everywhere.The first sentence at the beginning arouses people's thinking.Every part of an excellent work reflects the depth of the writer's understanding of life, and the theme of the work should be understood in this way. Wang Yu: The theme of the work is rich, and the characters in the work should not be single.A character like Gao Jialin cannot be simply understood.His pursuit and ideals have the characteristics of young people in this era.He wants to be a private teacher, wants to make some achievements in changing rural backward customs, and wants to obtain some conditions to display his talents. I am afraid it is beyond reproach; but there are also some personal things in him. , being discouraged when encountering unfavorable situations, and so on, all these intertwined in him, caused conflicts in the spiritual world, and made him in a process of development. Gao Jialin is a trekker on the road of life , rather than a simple winner and loser who has gone through life.The contradictions and developments deep in his heart have triggered the thinking of young friends on how to understand the complicated life.In short, this is a multi-faceted character, not a flat stack of certain character traits.

Lu Yao: In my opinion, the key to whether a character can stand up is whether the image truly reflects the conflicts in life. Some comments have a relatively simple view of the characters.The advanced or not of a character's thought is often confused with the artistic typicality of the character. It seems that the more advanced the character's thought, the greater the typical significance. To measure whether the character in a work is successful, it mainly depends on whether it is an artistic model. .As for what kind of typical writing should be advocated according to the needs of life development, that is a problem in another category, and these two issues should not be confused. Such a view has caused a certain degree of confusion among readers and novice writers.As for the image of Gao Jialin, I am writing about the intersection of rural areas and urban areas. In life, he should not be accused of being a backward person or a coward or villain. It is too simple to understand.Now some critics can also see the complexity of him, and think that Gao Jialin should not be viewed in the sense of a good guy and a bad guy, and I agree very much.A young man in his twenties like Gao Jialin has little life experience and has just embarked on the road of life, so immaturity is inevitable.Not only is Gao Jialin like this, but any young man who has just embarked on the road of life will not be a mature and perfect person. What's more, Gao Jialin was in such a situation at that time, he was able to deal with everything. It is impossible to show correct awareness.But in this young man, by no means everything should be denied.When I was the character of Min myself, my mental state was like this. I wrote this character with a kind of brotherly feeling.Because I am a few years older than Gao Jialin, I have walked a little longer than him, and I want to fully describe some of the advantages and disadvantages of this character.I hope that such a character can eventually become an outstanding youth in our society. The character currently appearing in the work has not yet matured to this stage.This is not to say that I defend my shortcomings. It can be seen in the works that my criticism of some bad things in his thoughts and feelings is very sharp.Regarding the writer's tendency, we have become accustomed to seeing how he praises and criticizes nakedly.In my opinion, a writer's tendency should be included in the overall structure of the work.My inclination is manifested in the whole, rather than jumping out from a certain place and criticizing Galin.

Wang Yu: This point, some commentary articles did not fully explain it. I think your last ending, or the ending of the debate, has already pointed out that for a character like Gao Jialin, it is really rooted in life. On the land, there will be a new beginning.You have high hopes for Gao Jialin. Lu Yao: It is full of my own aesthetic attitude towards life, which is very clear.As for how Gao Jialin should go next, what kind of person he will be, to some extent, life should answer, because life continues to develop, and Gao Jialin continues to live.I believe that with the changes and progress of our entire society, young people like Gao Jialin will eventually walk on the right path of life, but the road ahead is still not smooth for him.

Wang Yu: Yes.He will encounter many ups and downs in his future life. Lu Yao: This is for sure, because our life itself is advancing amidst contradictions. Wang Yu: When you created the image of Gao Jialin, did you have a prototype, or did you generalize it from many young people? Lu Yao: I myself came from the countryside and then went to work in the city. I am also a person at the intersection.I know many young people like this, and I am quite familiar with them.I am very clear about their living conditions and mental state. These people include my relatives. There are many such people in my family, and my younger brother is such a person.I have many such feelings in my life, which is why I summed up such a character image.

Wang Yu: The image of Gao Jialin resonates widely among readers, probably mainly because the author starts from life seriously and honestly, grasps the complex contradictions and conflicts in life, and fully expresses them.This character is not only a portrayal of rural youth, but also a microcosm of some youth in this era. Lu Yao: As a contemporary youth, Gao Jialin is not only a product of the intersection of urban and rural areas, but also in various industries. Gao Jialin in the city, Gao Jialin in the university, Gao Jialin in the factory , of course, more Gao Jialin in the countryside.Such young people are not uncommon in our society. My original thought was that I had the responsibility to write such a character. To care for them in all aspects so that they can grow up healthily, as our entire country and future business depends on this generation, so we must pay attention to them seriously and pay attention to this issue from now on; On the one hand, from the perspective of young people themselves, when the current society cannot meet their living requirements, they should treat life and life correctly. In a sense, especially when they are young, the road of life cannot be smooth sailing. There is a question of getting life right. Wang Yu: It should be said that Gao Jialin's character is multi-layered. He is not just a pile of personal characteristics, but reflects various contradictions of our era. The same is true for some other characters. Some characters have not been discussed much in published commentary articles, such as Liu Qiaozhen, who is a beautiful image, but it also reflects some contradictions of the rural young women themselves, and Gao Minglou. Image, you didn’t simplify him, he has a sense of superiority formed over the years, even a kind of “domineering”, but he has a side that conforms to the times and has a distinct love, scheming, courage, and many complexities s things.You highlighted the image of Liu Qiaozhen, which is a beautiful quality endowed by the long history of our nation to this generation of youth. It seems that you appreciate this character very much. Lu Yao: Liu Qiaozhen and Grandpa Deshun, some critics point out that I love them too much. There is a reason for this.I am the son of a farmer myself, and I grew up in the countryside, so I wrote these two characters with such a feeling for farmers, like Liu Qiaozhen. A feeling of elders, brothers, and sisters.These two characters represent a traditional virtue of our country and nation, a spirit of sacrifice in life.I think that no matter how far society advances, this kind of thing will always be precious to us. If we simply regard these things as feudal and no longer needed, then what hope is there for human beings? ?No matter at what stage of development, such a beautiful character is needed, and it is the most basic guarantee for the development of our human society. Of course they have their limitations, but this is not their responsibility, it is a limitation imposed on them by various social and historical reasons. Wang Yu: The inertia of our history restricts the development of things that should be developed. Lu Yao: Because of this, tragedies will inevitably happen in their lives and on the road of life. Like Liu Qiaozhen, her fate is so tragic, it is a tragic fate.I have a deep sympathy for this character. Wang Yu: In comparison, I always feel that the character of Huang Yaping is written a little thinly. What I call "thin" means that the vanity and superficial things in Huang Yaping are written out. There are bound to be contradictions and conflicts in this character. It seems that the bumps on the road of life are not written deeply enough.This may be my personal prejudice. I don't know what you think, and there are no more mentions of this character in many comments.However, judging from the relationship between this character and Gao Jialin, there should be both mutually influencing and contradictory aspects.Liu Qiaozhen's beautiful heart embodies the virtues that our nation has passed down from generation to generation. She warmed Gao Jialin's heart in difficult times and strengthened Gao Jialin's confidence in sustaining life.This is an image comparable to Gao Jialin.But between Gao Jialin and Huang Yaping, there are too few things that communicate and conflict with each other, and it seems that they only serve to set off Gao Jialin's tragic fate. Lu Yao: This work does have deficiencies. I don’t have much experience in writing long works, because there are many characters involved, some characters are not well developed, and I don’t pay enough attention to these characters. Like a director who is directing a play for the first time, he is often in a hurry, sometimes he can only focus on the main characters in the inner circle, and can't take care of some secondary characters.And some talented and experienced writers are like a director who breasts the overall situation and makes every corner play. I am still a trainee director and can only focus on the main characters.The character of Huang Yaping, I originally envisioned a larger scale than the current one. The current performance of this character is still the beginning, and she should develop in the future process. Now that the work has been completed, it is too late to make up for it.If this work can be developed, it may be better than it is now. It is not only Huang Yaping alone, but also other characters, such as Gao Minglou. If the work develops further, maybe he will rise to the main position Going up, I can only focus on the main part now.Of course a complete work should not have secondary parts. Wang Yu: As theater actors often say, there are only actors on stage, not small roles. Lu Yao: It’s like building a house. You mainly care about the beams and columns, and try to make them unique, leaving no time for other parts to be carefully carved, and sometimes even filled with common materials.In this way, some places seem very mediocre, and I am very dissatisfied. Wang Yu: It is indeed not easy to take care of every part in artistic creation. It is not only related to the writer's knowledge, but also related to the writer's experience and skills. It is no accident that many masters work hard on the structure.In Tolstoy's works, characters like Oblonsky in the novel should be said to be secondary, but he plays a key role in the scope of life reflected in the work, making the structure of the whole work so ironic. Sticky and well-proportioned.The latter two plots do not seem to fit closely with the structure of the whole work. One is Gao Jialin's change of status from the countryside to the city, which is due to the accidental arrival of his uncle; Even when meeting a woman like Zhang Kenan's mother, it was too sudden to inform her out of jealousy.I don't know how you think about these places. Lu Yao: Fiction cannot be a high-level work of art.The key question depends on whether the contradictions and conflicts described in the work, the fate of the characters, and the transformation and development of the conflict are reasonable and reasonable when tested from the perspective of the essence of historical life.In some places, it seems that chance is too obvious, mainly because the author did not write enough.The latter two plots cannot simply be said to be accidental, but I can only say that I did not write enough. Wang Yu: From this, I think of some problems in the current novel creation.We often say that realism needs to evolve. From the perspective of the creation of "Life 0", this "deepness" reflects the profundity of conflicts in life on the one hand, and the inner richness of the characters on the other hand, that is, the deeper depth. Reflect multiple aspects of character.Comrade Chen Yong's article published in the second issue of "Yanhe" this year raised a question worthy of attention. He believed that literary and artistic works should not only express the contradictions and conflicts between people and the surrounding things, but also further reflect the characters themselves. Contradictions and conflicts, even the image of a newcomer.Yours, I think stands out at this point. Lu Yao: In fact, a person is a world, and this world is not isolated, but closely related to the whole society and interdependent.Some works can fabricate many moving stories, but they don't pay attention to the spiritual world of the characters. People are just props in the work, and the work will not be deep.This is also the reason why some European writers, including Alexandre Dumas, are inferior to Balzac and Tolstoy. Wang Yu: I have benefited a lot from my conversation with you today.Writers study life.Study characters; critics must study writers and works, and pay attention to what new experiences and new thinking writers have in studying life and reflecting life. In this way, writers and critics can become true friends. Lu Yao: In fact, both writers and critics should study life.A critic who studies life also studies works; a writer who studies life also pays attention to reviews.Only in this way can critics evaluate works accurately and writers can constantly improve themselves. Wang Yu: Recently, I heard that both "In Difficult Days" and "In Difficult Days" will be adapted into movies. Apart from adapting these two movies, what new plans do you have? Lu Yao: At present, our country is in the torrent of reform, and the conflicts and changes in life are relatively severe. I don't want to express this change in a hurry. This change is a new topic for everyone, especially for writers.This reform has just begun, and it is impossible for us to see everything clearly at once. I want to study the various states of this reform and the various psychological changes of people, and it is impossible to write anything for the time being.When a writer publishes a work that attracts people's attention, it is like climbing a hillside. There may be a depression in front of him. Only through this depression can he climb another hillside.