Chapter 81 Conversation with Snow[1]

(January 9, 1965) Snow: Before I came here to meet the Chairman, I read the Chairman’s military works and contacted South Vietnamese military experts. Can it be said that the South Vietnam War[2] has entered the stage of mobile warfare, like China’s third domestic revolutionary war? like that? Mao Zedong: Our third domestic revolutionary war was the National War of Liberation. It started in 1946. At that time, Chiang Kai-shek had several million troops, and our army also had more than one million troops.In terms of scale, the South Vietnam War is not that big now.You can persuade the U.S. government, why do it do this? Wherever it goes, people there will learn to fight.However, if you tell it to go, it won't go.Let’s just talk about Ngo Dinh Diem[3]. Ho Chi Minh[4] and I both think he’s not bad, and we should help him maintain it for a few years.But the American general thinks Ngo Dinh Diem is very annoying and kills him, so the world will be peaceful?

S: Of course, the manpower of the South Vietnamese Liberation Army is not as good as that of China's Eighth Route Army and the later People's Liberation Army, but Saigon [5] also does not have as many troops as Chiang Kai-shek. Chairman Mao: Not so much, and he doesn’t know how to fight, even worse than Chiang Kai-shek. SS: Is it fair to say that South Vietnam was strong enough alone to overcome foreign interference and oppose local reactionaries? Chairman Mao: I think it is possible, at least it is better than the conditions during our Second Civil Revolutionary War.There was no direct foreign intervention during our Second Civil Revolutionary War.The advantage of South Vietnam now is that there are 20,000 Americans there, which can educate most of the people, soldiers and some officers in the army.Those who oppose the U.S. military are not all the People’s Liberation Army. Ngo Dinh Diem does not approve of the U.S., and some people in the current government’s military do not approve of the U.S. either.

S: Obviously. Chairman Mao: They were arguing a lot. S: Is it possible to enlist part of the South Vietnamese army in the Viet Cong? Mao: Yes, like Fu Zuoyi[6], like Tao Zhiyue[7] in Xinjiang, and Cheng Qian and Chen Mingren[8] in Hunan. S: Since my last visit to China, the international situation has changed a lot, and Africa has awakened.Under such circumstances, can it be said that the main contradiction at present is the contradiction between imperialism and the emerging powers in Asia, Africa and Latin America? Is this contradiction more important than the contradiction between imperialism?

Mao: What do you think? I don't know too well, and I haven't traveled around.What do you think when you walk around? I would like to ask you to be a teacher and talk about the international situation. S: I believe the chairman can answer, I can't, or have to wait for the next book by the chairman.From Chairman Mao's writings, we can see the events that Chairman Mao paid special attention to. From this, can it be considered that the contradiction between imperialism and the emerging powers in Asia, Africa and Latin America is the main contradiction? Chairman Mao: I think the President of the United States also said the same thing.The former president said many times that there are relatively few problems in the United States, Canada, and Western Europe, and the serious problems are in the southern half of the earth.Kennedy[9] talked about this issue in many speeches.He proposed special warfare and local warfare to deal with this.Word has it that he also reads my military articles, which may be true.When the Algerian issue could not be resolved, the Algerians asked me, what should I do if they use my books and the French also use them? The one who said this was then Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas, who had visited China.I said, how to use it? The book I wrote based on China's experience can only be applied to people's wars, not to wars against the people.Chiang Kai-shek also studied our materials. Many of our materials were obtained by Chiang Kai-shek during the war, but his failure could not be saved.Nor did the French save their failure by reading my book.Now we also study American military writings.Taylor, the US ambassador to South Vietnam and former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, wrote a book called "The Horn of Infinity".According to his book, he is not very in favor of nuclear weapons.He said that it was never used in the Korean War, and it was never used in the Chinese Liberation War. He doubted that future wars could be won with this kind of thing.He wants to compete for the number and cost of the army, but at the same time he says he wants to build nuclear weapons, and the two develop in parallel.He said that the army is needed and must maintain 800,000 to 900,000 people.The army must insist on the size of the army, the air force must develop more aircraft and nuclear weapons, and the navy has its own ideas.He represents the army and wants to fight for the army's priority.Now he has another chance to experiment in South Vietnam.He went to South Vietnam in June last year, less than a year, he might as well stay in North Korea for a long time.He will gain experience.I have seen how the U.S. Army has dealt with the regulations on guerrilla warfare in South Vietnam. It is nothing more than talking about the many advantages and disadvantages of guerrilla warfare in South Vietnam, and then saying that there is hope for the elimination of guerrillas.

S: The weakness of the Americans is not military but political. Mao: Probably.That is, the South Vietnamese government is unpopular. Whether it is the Ngo Dinh Diem government or the current government, they are all divorced from the masses.Helping such an unpopular government will not end well.Not only do they not listen to what I say, they also don't listen to what you say. S: They didn't listen to me in the past, so I think that's why they failed so much.Now we can see that the military and economic distance between Asia, Africa and Latin America and the developed countries is getting wider and wider. At the same time, the actions of neo-colonialism have made the distance even wider.Is this the main contradiction? So the policy of France has changed, is it not only to resist the United States, but also to adapt to this main contradiction?

Chairman Mao: I also talked with the French.When I was talking to the delegation of French parliamentarians, I asked them whether France was included in the Third World, and they said no.Now the developed countries are on one side and the underdeveloped countries are on the other side.The so-called developed countries are less consistent, and never have been.For example, two world wars broke out between developed countries such as Britain, France, Germany, Italy, and Japan. Isn't this a fight between a developed country and a developed country? The purpose is to fight for the so-called underdeveloped countries.Why do they fight? Is it because they can’t sleep or eat? You didn’t participate in this war. Your previous president participated in World War II, and your current president also participated.

S: I was working as a war correspondent in Russia at the time. Mao: How long did you stay? S: Two and a half years.After the war, he stayed in England and France.I've never killed anyone, but I've almost been killed a few times. Chairman Mao: So dangerous! Also go to the front line? S: War reporters are an accessory to war.I never went to the front in Russia, but I went to the front in Germany and France, and I went to Stalingrad when Stalingrad was fought. Mao: Before or after the fight? S: When Hitler's [10] army surrendered. Chairman Mao: At that time Hitler was amazing, almost occupying the whole of Europe.Except for Moscow, Leningrad, and east of the Stalingrad line, almost all of Europe was occupied by him, but Britain was not included.He also occupied North Africa.Hitler made a mistake, and if his army followed Dunkirk, there was nothing Britain could do.This is what a British Prime Minister[12] told us in Geneva to Premier Zhou Enlai.At that time, Britain had no soldiers at all, and there was no fortification everywhere, but because of the English Channel, Germany did not dare to cross it.

S: Hitler was eager to fight Russia.Is there any hope for the improvement of Sino-US relations? Chairman Mao: I think there is hope, but it will take time.Maybe there's no hope in my life, I'm about to meet God, maybe you have hope.According to dialectics, life is always finite. S: I think the chairman is in good health. Chairman Mao: I have prepared many times, but I can’t die, what can I do! How many times I seem to be dying, including the danger in the war you mentioned, killing the guards around me, and blood splashing on me, but the bomb just didn’t work Hit me. S: When in Yan'an?

Mao: Many times.There was also one time on the Long March, when I crossed the Dadu River, a plane bombed me and killed my guard captain, but this time the blood did not splash on me. I used to be a primary school teacher, as you know, not only did I not think about fighting a war, but I also didn’t think about joining the Communist Party. I am a democrat just like you.Later, I don't know why the Communist Party came into being.In short, it does not depend on the will of us people.It is a fact that China was oppressed by imperialism, feudalism, bureaucratic capitalism, and at first by warlords.

SS: Objective conditions make revolution inevitable, and there are no such conditions now.Now the conditions in China are different, what will happen to the next generation? Chairman Mao: I don’t know either, that’s for the next generation.Who knows what the next generation will do, but there are several possibilities: one is to continue to develop the revolution; Counter-revolutionaries standing together are called counter-revolutionaries.You ask my opinion, of course I don't want a counter-revolution.Future events are determined by future people.In the long run, people in the future will be smarter than us, just as people in the capitalist age are smarter and better than people in the feudal age.There is no feudalism in the United States, but there is in Europe.

S: The United States cannot be said to have no feudalism at all. One of the reasons for the Civil War[13] was anti-feudalism. Chairman Mao: It was to compete for labor force. The so-called emancipation of black slaves meant opening up the labor market. S: Although the feudal lords in the southern United States did not rule for a long time, the influence of feudalism was very deep. Chairman Mao: The south is still relatively backward. S: Does the chairman still think the atomic bomb is a paper tiger? Chairman Mao: I'm just talking about it. If you really fight, you will die.But in the end it will be wiped out, and then it will become a paper tiger. It is gone! S: The chairman will definitely hear someone say that the chairman thinks that if a nuclear war breaks out, people in some other countries will all be wiped out, leaving hundreds of millions of people in China. Mao: What do you think? S: In fact, the chairman has answered it indirectly, and it was also mentioned in the article on the debate between China and the Soviet Union. Chairman Mao: I also forgot how you answered. S: I'm afraid I forgot too, but I remember that there was an article saying that it was a lie and that these words were forced on the chairman. Mao: How did you say it? S: They say that if a nuclear war breaks out, China will still have hundreds of millions of people left behind.This is what the chairman said to a Yugoslavian when he visited China in the second half of the 1950s. Mao: I can’t remember, maybe I said it.What I remember saying is that we don't want to fight, we don't have atomic bombs, if other countries want to fight, the whole world may suffer.Suffering is nothing more than death. No one knows how many people will die, but some will die.I'm not just talking about China.I don't believe that the atomic bomb can destroy all human beings, everything can be destroyed, and no government can find peace.This was mentioned in a talk with Nehru[14] in Beijing.He said that he is the director of the Indian Atomic Energy Commission, and he knows the power of atomic weapons.I said that maybe not, as he said, there will be no government to negotiate peace after a nuclear war.When this government falls, that government will rise again, and someone will always stand up.I didn't say that the whole world would perish.I heard you have a movie called "On the Beach". S: That's a fiction, that all human beings are destroyed. Chairman Mao: How is this possible! Khrushchev [15] said that he had a kind of bullet in his hand, a kind of dead light [16], which could wipe out all human beings, animals, and plants. Later, he said he hadn’t mentioned it , denied several times.I don't deny what I said, don't deny this so-called rumor for me. S: In my book, it is also said that the chairman may also say the same, the purpose is to see how the other party reacts. Mao: This is because a politician of a big country said that there would be no government at that time, and I refuted his opinion. S: Is this the first time it was mentioned under such circumstances? Mao: Yes.This happened in October 1954.When the Americans said that the atomic bomb was destructive, Khrushchev also said it very proudly. They all surpassed me, and I lagged behind them.Is it so? Quite behind.Recently, I saw reports that many American experts visited Bikini Island[17]. After they landed, they saw mice still running around, fish still swimming in the lake, the well water was still drinkable, the plants were lush, and there were many birds. Experts have to open roads and cut down trees when entering the island.This is after 12 years of nuclear weapons explosion tests on this island, and I went there again after six years.The organisms were unlucky for about a year or two after the explosion, and then grew again.Why are the mice not affected at all, not destroyed? Because they burrowed into the hole.Why are there so many plants that are not affected? Probably a lot of them died, and the rest grew again, and after a few years, they developed greatly. S: I have seen a movie, shortly after the hydrogen bomb exploded, all creatures died, and the turtles ran to the shore to lay eggs, but no baby turtles were born. Mao: It may happen again in a few years.Whether it is the same for humans, I don't know. S: Beetles have the strongest vitality. Chairman Mao: In short, to the birds, trees, and turtles there, the atomic bomb is just a paper tiger.Maybe humans are a little weaker than them. S: Man is more susceptible to the toxins he creates.The ant thinks he rules the world, he is the lord of the world. Mao: In the eyes of ants, everyone is insignificant.Ants are relatively large animals.Bacteria are doing things that humans cannot.There are only so many people in the world, more than three billion.But according to soil scientists, every mu of land contains 400 kilograms of bacteria.No bacteria can't make soil, and can't grow plants.So don't look at how small it is, it can get into anyone's body, whether you are a president or a journalist, it is very powerful. S: Bacteria are simply invisible. Mao: People can’t live without it. I don’t know how many bacteria there are in the human body. According to medicine, there are E. coli and fungi in the mouth. Without it, it is very bad for people.We can agree on this issue.The investigation by American experts in Bikini Island is very good material, and we printed and distributed this material to the representatives of the National Congress. S: Is this a public report? Mao: No, it was a newsletter written by a Chinese citing materials from American experts, and that newsletter was published in Hong Kong's "News World". S: Even so, the chairman doesn't think nuclear war is a good thing? Mao: Yes.Don't fight a nuclear war at all, fight it with conventional weapons. S: It seems that Asia, Africa and Latin America are becoming more and more modernized, and revolutions are developing more and more. Mao: Maybe. S: Could revolutions in Asia, Africa and Latin America be accomplished without World War III? Mao: It is difficult to say when it will be completed, it may take quite a long time. Sri Lanka: China supports Indonesia's withdrawal from the United Nations.Will this set a precedent for other countries to withdraw from the UN? Chairman Mao: The United States set the precedent.The United States does not allow China to enter the United Nations, and proposes that a two-thirds majority must be passed to enter the United Nations.Isn't it good that China didn't join the United Nations? Indonesia withdrew from the United Nations because it felt that there was no benefit in participating in the United Nations. S: Can you say that China does not want to join the United Nations? Mao: No.If two-thirds of the countries in the United Nations want us to go in, but we don’t go in, wouldn’t it mean that we are nationalists? But we want the United Nations to dismantle the slander that China is an aggressor, and at the same time point out that the United States is an aggressor, you see Is this reason acceptable? How can China, as an aggressive country, enter the United Nations? It will not agree to the United States being an aggressor.Now we don't want to go in, and the United States doesn't want us to go in either.When we go in, America will feel in the way.On this point, the two parties have something in common.Let Generalissimo Jiang stay in the United Nations to represent China now! You don’t want to report these words, we haven’t announced them yet. S: Is it possible to have a United Nations without the United States? Mao: The Asian-African Conference[18] did not include the United States. S: There is also the Emerging Powers Games [19]. Chairman Mao: China is very big, and I have many things to do and I am very busy.China is also a "United Nations".Our "United Nations" receives you, but that United Nations has not received you yet, right? When are you planning to leave China? S: I'll be leaving in a few days.This time I go back, Johnson [20] may find someone to let me see him once.Do you have any message for him? Mao: None. S: I can pass that on to him too. Some "Maoist" experts in the West are arguing with each other and have different views.Not long ago, I attended a meeting of "experts on Beijing issues" in Geneva. One of the issues debated at the meeting was whether "On Contradiction" made new contributions to Marxism-Leninism? Mao: Who are they? Publishers? Si: Mainly university professors, experts in Russian and Chinese.One of the questions raised during the debate was whether "On Contradiction" was really written in 1937, and whether it was written before the pamphlet "Dialectical Materialism"[21]. Chairman Mao: It was written in 1937.At that time, everyone went to the front to fight Japan. S: Was there time to do research? Chairman Mao: At that time, the Anti-Japanese Military and Political University asked me to give lectures on philosophy. S: "On Contradiction" is part of the lecture? Mao: Exactly.They forced me to give lectures and there was nothing I could do.This is part of the handout written.It took several weeks to collect some materials, mainly summarizing the experience of the Chinese revolution, writing every night and sleeping during the day.The lecture lasted only two hours.When I was giving lectures, they were not allowed to read books or take notes, so I explained the main points of the lecture notes. S: A few years before the pamphlet Dialectical Materialism was written? Mao: I don't remember writing such a pamphlet.In fact, "On Contradiction" is not as good as the article "On Practice". "On Practice" talks about the process of cognition, explaining where people's cognition comes from and where it goes. S: These two articles were written at the same time, right? Mao: Soon after. S: Is it 1938, 1939? Chairman Mao: It wasn't 1938, it was busy in 1938, it was 1937. S: Now I can tell those professors what the chairman himself said.Professors may still insist on their views when engaging in academic debates.Has the chairman read the article by Hegel[22]? Chairman Mao: I have seen some, including Feuerbach's[23].There is a considerable amount of material in a book by Haeckel[24] in which he does not admit that he is a materialist, in fact he is a materialist. S: When did you read it? Chairman Mao: It was a long time ago. It was the time for guerrilla warfare. S: While the chairman is making a revolution, he has provided jobs for many professors, and now many people may become experts in "Maoology". Mao: During the Warring States period in China, a man wrote a book called "Lao Tzu", and later there were more than a hundred annotated "Lao Tzu".These things of mine now, even those of Marx, Engels, and Lenin, may look ridiculous a thousand years from now. S: A thousand years is a long time. Chairman Mao: The next millennium may change more than the past millennium. S: Profound technological revolution, conquering space.But I believe the impact of the Chairman's writings will reach far beyond our generation and the next. Chairman Mao: You may have gone too far. I don't even believe it myself. S: No one in Chinese history has gone through so many transformations like Chairman Mao, from the beginning as a student, to participating in the revolution, to the completion of the revolution, and becoming a historian and philosopher. Chairman Mao: I cannot refute you, nor can I agree.It depends on future generations and how they will see it decades later.In the eyes of some people, it is certain that I am a bad person.Imperialism, revisionism, and the reactionaries of various countries do not approve of me, including Chiang Kai-shek.He doesn't approve of me, and I don't approve of him.This will lead to disputes, sometimes writing articles, sometimes resorting to violence. S: China now emphasizes maintaining the revolutionary spirit among the youth.Is it important to set an example for similar countries and to promote revolutions in other countries so that the Chinese revolution can finally be safe? Mao: The young people have never seen exploitation by landlords or capitalists, nor have they ever fought wars, nor have they seen what imperialism is.Even people in their twenties now were only about ten years old at the time, and knew nothing about the old society.Therefore, it is necessary for their parents and the elderly to talk about the past, otherwise they will not know the history of the past.The last point you just mentioned is hard to say.What kind of security do you talk about? Aren’t you talking about disarmament now? When did you talk about disarmament? Didn’t you talk about general and complete disarmament? The Soviet Union talked about it in the past, and now the United States also talks about it.In fact, it is now a general and thorough military expansion.They talk about general disarmament, but in reality there is general military expansion. S: The North Atlantic Treaty Organization [25] is like this. Now it is divided into two parts, and the two parts are divided into four parts. Each country must have its own atomic bomb. Chairman Mao: Even if China is not allowed to have atomic bombs, we don’t want to have so many atomic bombs. Why do we want so many? A little bit is good, and we should do some scientific experiments. S: The Chairman once said that when the local tyrants and evil gentry were overthrown in Jiangxi, they said that Mr. Soviet was a very bad guy.Moreover, throughout the development of China's revolution, the West has been saying that Mr. Socialism caused a lot of trouble, and now it is attributed to China's atomic bomb. Chairman Mao: This proves that my "reputation" is not good, and the "reputation" of the Chinese government and the Chinese Party is not very good.Why did they oppose China and engage in an anti-China climax? We were caught off guard when suddenly Kennedy disappeared.The Vietnamese people were caught off guard, and Ngo Dinh Diem was gone.Another surprise, Khrushchev stepped down, God knows, and he did it so thoroughly, his books and photos were all put away. S: Many European parties criticized the Soviet Party for using this method to bring Khrushchev out of power. Chairman Mao: We don't have many photos of Khrushchev here, but there are still Khrushchev's books in bookstores.The world would be fine without Khrushchev! Khrushchev's ghost haunts him, there are always people like him. S: Can the current new leadership of the CPSU say that it is 30-70 and 70-70 is right? Mao: The current leadership of the CPSU? It's hard to say, I won't talk about it.It is said outside that they want to practice Khrushchevism without Khrushchev. S: After Khrushchev stepped down, how did Sino-Soviet relations improve? Mao: There may be a little, but not much, and we have lost an object to write articles and criticize. S: Some people in Russia say that China has a personality superstition. Mao: I'm afraid there is a little bit.It is said that Stalin did have it, Khrushchev did not at all, and the Chinese did.This also makes some sense.Khrushchev fell, probably because he had no personal superstition. S: I consider it a great honor and a personal benefit to have known you, and I wish I had conveyed your thoughts to others.I really think what you have accomplished is great, not everything is good of course, but a lot of great things have been done anyway.Regrettably, due to historical reasons, China and the United States and the two peoples have been separated. Chairman Mao: Due to historical reasons, the two countries will get closer.To wait, there will always be such a day. S: I don't think there will be a major war between China and the United States. Mao: It is also possible that you are right.In China, the U.S. military may or may not come.There is no big deal here, and we will not benefit the US military.Because of this, maybe they don't come.We will not call to the United States, I have already said this, you can rest assured. S: The United States often says that the South Vietnam War will be extended to the North. Mao: Rusk [26] recently corrected his statement, saying that he had not said such a thing. S: Of course, I don't think the US government will listen to me.There is a member of the United States named Church, who is now proposing a big debate on the US policy of interfering in other countries.He is a good friend of Johnson.The rulers of the United States don't know the Chairman, and I'm afraid I don't either. Chairman Mao: Why don’t you understand? We don’t fight abroad, we only fight when the United States calls in.This is evidenced by history.Our country is too busy with its own affairs. It is a crime to fight out. Why do you want to fight out? South Vietnam does not need us to go, they can deal with it themselves. S: The Americans who fought the South Vietnam War were saying that if the United States withdrew from South Vietnam, China would occupy the whole of Southeast Asia. Chairman Mao: What is the law of occupation? Should our army occupy or the local people occupy? The Chinese still occupy China. S: Does China have troops in South Vietnam? Mao: None. S: Rusk said that if China and North Vietnam abandon their aggressive policies in Southeast Asia, the United States will withdraw from South Vietnam. Chairman Mao: We have no policy of aggression to give up, we have no aggression.But China supports the revolution, and it is impossible not to support it.Wherever there is a revolution, we will issue a statement to support it and hold meetings to support it.This is what imperialism hates.We like to talk empty words and fire empty guns, but we don't send troops.Is it called aggression to fire a cannon? It is not aggression to send troops? S: In the past it was said that China was supported by Russia, but now South Vietnam is said to be supported by China. Chairman Mao: China's civil war was won mainly by the weapons of the United States, which proves that there is no positive support from foreign countries.In fact, South Vietnam got its weapons from the United States.Since last year, they have not only been able to acquire weapons, but have also replenished their troops, often capturing South Vietnamese puppet troops.This is the same as in the past when one of our sources of soldiers was Chiang Kai-shek's army. They were trained and captured and forced to serve as soldiers. Once they were captured, they could join our army in combat. S: why? Chairman Mao: They were captured by the Kuomintang to serve as soldiers. They don't like the Kuomintang. S: Another point is that the CCP and the people across the country are on the same page. Chairman Mao: The poor peasants were captured by the Kuomintang and sent to serve as soldiers.Our method is to spend a few days holding complaint meetings and spirit sacrifice meetings. If someone in a family is killed by the Kuomintang, the name of the deceased will be written on a piece of paper to worship the spirit.Having solved the problem in this way, they joined our army and put on a hat.Why do they have to wear our hats? Because they are afraid that after being beaten to death, they will be mistaken for Kuomintang soldiers.You can recognize them as ours by the hat on their heads. S: To a large extent, that was the case in South Vietnam. Mao: Wherever there is oppression, there will be no revolution.That's what a socialist revolution is.The bourgeoisie will also oppose feudalism when capitalism develops to a certain level.The United States does not have a feudal system, but has colonialism—Britain. When American capitalism develops to a certain extent, it will oppose Britain.People in the world who are not oppressed will rise up for revolution? The United States broke out in the War of Independence[27] because it was oppressed by Britain.The American Revolutionary War is almost 200 years old, right? S: There were many revolutionaries during the American War of Independence, and the slogans they put forward were the same as those put forward by the French Revolution[28].At that time the United States became the only republic in the world.At that time, European countries viewed the United States in the same way that the United States views China today. Mao: Washington[29]'s "reputation" is not good, we can posthumously recognize him as a "Communist Party". S: The CCP will regard him as a reactionary person, so he will not be allowed to join the party. Mao: Not being able to join the Communist Party is one thing. There was no Communist Party at that time. Washington played a revolutionary role. We should admit that he played a very advanced role at that time and was very progressive.And Lincoln [30] as well. S: Lincoln was a paradox and a great man.He is a humanitarian.I hope that before I leave, I would like to ask Chairman to say a few words to the American people. The American people have a good impression of China. Mao: I wish them progress.If I wish them liberation, some of them may not quite agree.I just wish liberation to those who realize that they are not yet liberated and who have difficulties in life. S: The chairman's words are very good, especially in connection with the previous words, that is, China will not send out, and China is busy with its own affairs.I see this myself. Mao: Americans need to be liberated again, this is their own business.Not from British rule, but from monopoly capital. S: Could the chairman give some advice to the President of the United States? Mao: This is hard to mention.The American hands are reaching out to the whole world. We have already asked them to take it back a little bit, but they don't listen as usual. S: Almost half of the U.S. military is in foreign countries.It seems that many American troops in foreign countries have become hostages of the local people. Chairman Mao: It is not good to go, and it is not good not to go. This puts the U.S. government in a difficult situation.It is difficult for the US to withdraw its troops, and it is also difficult not to withdraw.Where there is a little trouble, it will send troops, and it will be transferred like this.Sometimes we call it this way on purpose, such as shooting a few shots at Jinmen [31], because we fired so many shots, it felt that the Seventh Fleet was not enough, so it sent part of the Sixth Fleet and the San Francisco Navy. .We stopped firing cannons again. The U.S. troops had nothing to do when they came, so they had to drive back.So the U.S. military can be mobilized, and it can do whatever it wants.It's a bit like Chiang Kai-shek's army, it can do whatever it wants. S: The U.S. military has to have something to do. Mao: I have something to do.U.S. monopoly capital will go to some places to help the reactionaries, tell them not to help, it must help, and in the end it must leave, just like helping Chiang Kai-shek.In the past, there were U.S. troops in Shanghai, Qingdao, Tianjin, Tangshan, and Beijing, but they all left later, and they all left very quickly. Our army was still far away from them, so they left quickly.At that time, the United Kingdom was very stupid and sent warships to Nanjing to pick up the troops, but they were attacked by us. [32] The problem is that China has such an unbelievable Chiang Kai-shek who has always been defeated and has a strong People's Liberation Army.Where these conditions are not met, the United States will stay and not leave. S: Only under the same circumstances would the United States withdraw from South Vietnam? Chairman Mao: If the American troops in South Vietnam are not leaving now, they may fight for another year or two, but the United States feels that it has no taste, and it is hard to say if they leave. S: If I understand what Premier Zhou Enlai said correctly, the Premier told me that it is impossible to resolve the South Vietnam issue through a meeting before the withdrawal of the US troops.Is that so? Chairman Mao: I don't know what the Prime Minister said. I am afraid that both possibilities must be mentioned.Negotiations can be made before the withdrawal of the troops, and they can also be discussed after the withdrawal of the troops.Or don't talk about it at all, and South Vietnam drives the US troops away.It even talked about the U.S. military and did not leave, just like it did in North Korea.It was also discussed in Geneva.After the Geneva Conference[33], the United States sent troops into South Vietnam to replace the French troops.To be honest, it is a good thing for the US military to stay in South Vietnam. It has tempered the South Vietnamese people and strengthened the PLA.Only Ngo Dinh Diem is not enough, just as it is not enough to have only one Chiang Kai-shek in China. Japan must occupy more than half of China, and the occupation lasts for eight years, in order to temper the Chinese people. Published based on the transcript of the conversation kept by the Central Archives. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ note [1] This is the main part of Mao Zedong's conversation with American progressive writer and journalist Edgar Snow. [2] The South Vietnam War, the Vietnam War.After the Geneva Conference in 1954, in order to replace France as the suzerain of Indochina, the United States broke the Geneva Agreement and fostered the establishment of a pro-American "Republic of Vietnam" in South Vietnam with Ngo Dinh Diem as its president.In 1961, the United States launched a "special war" against South Vietnam with money and guns from the United States and personnel from the Ngo Dinh Diem Group in South Vietnam to suppress the armed resistance of the soldiers and civilians in South Vietnam.At the beginning of 1965, the United States, while bombing North Vietnam on a large scale and continuously, sent a large number of troops to South Vietnam at the same time, escalating the war of aggression against Vietnam into a "local war." [3] Wu Tingyan, see note [6] on page 375 of this volume. [4] Ho Chi Minh, then Chairman of the Central Committee of the Vietnam Labor Party and Chairman of the Democratic Republic of Vietnam. [5] Saigon, here refers to the South Vietnamese regime supported by the United States, whose ruling center is in Saigon. [6] Fu Zuoyi (1895-1974), a native of Anchang Village, Ronghe, Shanxi (now Linyi).He once served as the commander-in-chief of the "Suppression General" of the Kuomintang Army in North China, and the chairman of the Chahar Provincial Government.In January 1949, he led his troops to accept the peaceful reorganization of the Chinese People's Liberation Army and contributed to the peaceful liberation of Beiping and Suiyuan.After the founding of the People's Republic of China, he served as a member of the Central People's Government, vice-chairman of the National Defense Commission, vice-chairman of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, and minister of the Ministry of Water Resources and Electric Power. [7] Tao Zhiyue (1892-1988), a native of Ningxiang, Hunan.He once served as the commander-in-chief of the Xinjiang Garrison Command of the Kuomintang Army.In September 1949, he led an uprising.After the founding of the People's Republic of China, he served as deputy commander of the Xinjiang Military Region of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, commander of the Xinjiang Production and Construction Corps, member of the National Defense Commission, member of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, and vice chairman of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference. [8] Cheng Qian (18821-1968), a native of Liling, Hunan.He used to be the director of the Changsha Appeasement Office of the Kuomintang Army and the chairman of the Hunan Provincial Government.In August 1949, he led an uprising with Chen Mingren, and Hunan was liberated peacefully.After the founding of the People's Republic of China, he served as a member of the Central People's Government, vice chairman of the Standing Committee of the National People's Congress, vice chairman of the National Defense Committee, standing member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference, and governor of Hunan Province.Chen Mingren (1903-1974) was born in Liling, Hunan.He once served as the deputy chief of the Central China Military and Political Commissioner's Office of the Kuomintang government and the commander of the First Corps.In August 1949, he led an uprising with Cheng Qian, and Hunan was liberated peacefully.After the founding of the People's Republic of China, he served as deputy commander of the Hunan Military Region of the Chinese People's Liberation Army, commander of the 21st Corps, member of the National Defense Commission, and standing member of the National Committee of the Chinese People's Political Consultative Conference. [9] Kennedy, President of the United States from 1960 to 1963. [10] Hitler, see note [4] on page 374 of this volume. [11] Dunkirk is a seaport city in northern France.This refers to the withdrawal of British and French troops from Dunkirk in the early days of World War II.In May 1940, the German army attacked Belgium, the Netherlands, and Luxembourg, invaded France, and defeated the British and French troops.The 220,000 British Expeditionary Force and the 200,000 French Army were forced to retreat to the coastal areas of Belgium and France, facing the danger of being wiped out.From May 27 to June 4, more than 300,000 British troops and some French troops withdrew from the Dunkirk area across the English Channel to the United Kingdom.Although a large amount of weapons and equipment were discarded during the retreat, vital forces were preserved. [12] Refers to Aiden.一九五四年日内瓦会议时他任英国副首相兼外交大臣，一九五五年至一九五七年任英国首相。 [13]南北战争，见本卷第219页注[12]。 [14]尼赫鲁，一九四七年至一九六四年任印度总理。 [15]赫鲁晓夫，原为苏联共产党中央委员会第一书记、苏联部长会议主席。一九六四年十月被解除领导职务。 [16]死光，即激光。 [17]比基尼岛，是马绍尔群岛中的一个珊瑚岛，一九四七年成为美国托管地，曾经是美国的核试验基地。 [18]亚非会议，即万隆会议，一九五五年四月十八日至二十四日在印度尼西亚万隆召开。参加会议的有缅甸、锡兰（今斯里兰卡）、印度、印度尼西亚和巴基斯坦五个发起国，以及阿富汗、柬埔寨、中华人民共和国、埃及等，共二十九个亚非国家。会议广泛讨论了民族主权、反殖民主义斗争、世界和平以及与会国之间的经济文化合作等问题，发表了《亚非会议最后公报》，提出了著名的关于促进世界和平与合作的十项原则。 [19]新兴力量运动会，是一九六三年十一月十日至二十二日在印度尼西亚首都雅加达举行的新兴力量国家及地区参加的运动会。参加运动会的有来自亚洲、非洲、拉丁美洲和欧洲四十多个国家和地区的二千余名运动员。 [20]约翰逊，当时任美国总统。 [21]指一九三七年七、八月毛泽东为抗日军政大学讲授哲学而写的《辩证法唯物论（讲授提纲）》。后来，毛泽东将其中的两节，整理成为《实践论》和《矛盾论》两篇著作，收入《毛泽东选集》。 [22]黑格尔（一七七○——一八三一），德国古典哲学家，客观唯心主义者，辩证法大师。主要著作有、《逻辑学》、《法哲学原理》等。 [23]费尔巴哈（一八○四——一八七二），德国古典哲学家，唯物主义的代表。主要著作有《黑格尔哲学批判》、《基督教的本质》等。 [24]指海克尔的《宇宙之谜》。海克尔（一八三四——一九一九），德国自然科学家、达尔文主义的卓越代表之一。他在《宇宙之谜》一书中，批判了唯心主义和僧侣主义，试图根据最新的科学成就建立严整的唯物主义体系。 [25]北大西洋公约组织，见本卷第375页注[8]。 [26]腊斯克，一九○九年生，美国民主党人，当时任美国国务卿。 [27]见本卷第219页注[11]。 [28]法国大革命，指一七八九年至一七九四年法国资产阶级革命。它是在法国封建制度极端腐朽，第一等级（僧侣）和第二等级（贵族）与广大的第三等级（农民、城市平民和资产阶级）之间的矛盾日益尖锐化的情况下爆发的。这次革命推翻了法国封建专制制度，促进了法国资本主义的发展，并推动了欧洲各国的资产阶级革命运动。 [29]华盛顿，见本卷第194页注[12]。 [30]林肯（一八○九——一八六五），美国共和党人，一八六一年至一八六五年任美国总统。他领导了反对南方奴隶制的战争，颁布了著名的《宅地法》和《解放黑奴宣言》。 [31]见本卷第23页注[2]。 [32]一九四九年四月二十日至二十一日，当人民解放军渡江作战的时候，侵入中国内河长江的紫石英号等四艘英国军舰先后驶向人民解放军防区，妨碍渡江，中英双方发生了军事冲突。英舰开炮打死打伤人民解放军二百五十多人。紫石英号被人民解放军击伤被迫停于镇江附近江中，其他三艘英舰逃走。七月三十日夜紫石英号军舰逃出长江。 [33]日内瓦会议，指一九五四年四月二十六日至七月二十一日在瑞士日内瓦召开的讨论和平解决朝鲜问题和恢复印度支那和平问题的国际会议。中、苏、美、英、法五国参加所有两项议题的讨论。朝鲜北南双方及美、英、法以外的其他十二个侵略朝鲜北方的国家参加了朝鲜问题的讨论，越南民主共和国、老挝、柬埔寨和南越政权参加了印度支那问题的讨论。关于朝鲜问题没有达成任何协议；关于恢复印度支那和平问题，分别达成关于在印度支那三国停止敌对行动的协定和《日内瓦会议最后宣言》（总称日内瓦协议），实现了印度支那的停战。