Chapter 30 From Homeless to Thoreau——Talking about Homeless and Chinese Society with Wang Xuetai

"Where is China going?" has always been the focus of the world.Before we have an answer, we must first have a comprehensive understanding of the implicit and explicit characteristics of Chinese society.In order to better understand the various difficulties of the times in China during the transition period and peep into the future prospects, the author of this book interviewed Mr. Wang Xuetai, a famous scholar and expert on China's homeless issues, to help readers think. Xiong Peiyun: Some people call your "Homeless Culture and Chinese Society" and Wu Si's two keys to understand Chinese history and society.Mr. Li Shenzhi also called this book "discovering another China".First, let’s take an example to talk about how the homeless culture in popular literature and art affects Chinese society?

Wang Xuetai: In addition to using its vivid stories (such as pushing the Liangshan, outsmarting the birthday card, etc.) to show the truth it explains, it also affects the audience through the words it creates. I call it "discourse implantation".Many words in the book have become catchphrases, active in the oral cavity of later generations, and even become a guide for people to understand society and behavior.For example, "Juyi", "drinking in a big bowl, eating a large piece of meat", "forced to the top", "doing justice for the sky", "a hero" and so on. The word "hero" existed in the Tang Dynasty, but at that time it mostly referred to scholars, and now it refers to green forest heroes, and this meaning is generally accepted by later generations. After "Shui Dao Zhuan", the world called those brave and powerful people, who dared to commit crimes, and had a little bit of loyalty, as "heroes".In the past when we met Jie Dao, you didn’t know what to call him, but now you can call him “Hero Lord”.Another example is road robbery and house theft. I always feel that it is not a good thing.With the story of outsmarting the birthday card, everyone will know that "there is no hindrance to taking ill-gotten wealth", and this sentence is correct in the context of .So who defines "ill-gotten wealth"?Robbers of course.This is the out-and-out "robber logic".

Xiong Peiyun: In other words, these popular novels have enhanced the "boxer spirit" or "vagrant character" of the Chinese to a certain extent. Wang Xuetai: The character of the homeless is not something I dreamed up, but a summary based on "Shui Xu Zhuan" and others.These novels were created by Jianghu entertainers and then rewritten by literati, so they left many traces of vagrants.In the Qing Dynasty, there was a historian named Qian Daxin. He proposed that there had been Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism since ancient times, but after the Ming Dynasty there was an additional "novel religion".why?Because the novel is so attractive, not only scholars and bureaucrats like it, but also illiterate women and children, and Ah Q who can't even draw circles well.In terms of influence, the "fiction religion" is greater than the three religions of Confucianism, Taoism, and Buddhism.As Ah Q sang, "I regret that I beat you with a steel whip..." is the libretto of "Dragon and Tiger Fight".Qian Daxin said that if Buddhism and Taoism teach people to be good, then "fiction teaching" teaches people to "do evil".He mainly cited two examples.One is the representative works of "taking murder as a hero", including operas and quyi; the other is the representative works of "taking fishing as a romantic".Of course, it is different from that era now, but what is certain is that for a long time works such as Water Margin and Three Kingdoms have not only reflected the vagrant consciousness of the bottom society, but also strengthened the rooting and popularity of this consciousness.

Xiong Peiyun: When it comes to Chinese modern social movements, what role do these novels full of "simple swords and sticks" play? Wang Xuetai: Since the Song Dynasty, Chinese society has been greatly influenced by opera and quyi.By the end of the Qing Dynasty, the Taiping Heavenly Kingdom's costumes, official positions, and combat methods were also obviously influenced by popular literature and art. Similarly, members of the Boxer Regiment had to make up as characters in popular literature and art (in the Boxer Regiment, these characters became gods), such as makeup Become Monkey King, Zhu Bajie, Huang Zhong, Ma Chao and so on.The same goes for the Revolution of 1911, which was supported by the Tiandihui, and the Tiandihui is also a highly dramatic organization.During the Second Civil Revolutionary War, Jiangxi had the Republic of Soviets. People didn't understand what "Soviet" meant, and they thought it was Su Zhaozheng who first came here to rebel and become emperor, and "Soviet" meant "the succession of the prince".

Xiong Peiyun: What you said is very true.Until now, the door god stickers on the door of my hometown in the countryside are still characters from Three Kingdoms and Shuidao.Through your analysis, I can better understand the negative impact of various imperial dramas that are flooding the screens on the establishment of Chinese civil society.It can even be said that they continue to shape the dual character of Chinese nomads and subjects.So, what attitude do rulers in history usually take toward novels of rebellious nature? Wang Xuetai: Generally speaking, the ruling class usually adopts a suppressive attitude towards similar works.For example, the Qing Dynasty even issued an imperial decree for this purpose, prohibiting the publication and performance of similar works.It has been banned several times in history, but sometimes it is also adapted by the royal family. For example, the court drama "Loyalty Xuantu" during the Qianlong period is about the characters of the Water Margin.That is to say, while counter-spreading, the ruling class also wants to incorporate it into the mainstream ideology.

Xiong Peiyun: Mr. Li Ming, a philosopher, once talked to me that China's four great classics actually reflect the "four great despairs".For example, the overlord who "would rather let the people of the world bear me than the people of the world", the corrupt bureaucrats who broke the law, the rigidity of the social system and the deep despair of the future, as well as the disillusionment of the Confucian ideals embodied in it, and so on. Wang Xuetai: Harmony is different. Harmony was developed slowly by storytellers, etc., and it reflects things at the bottom.I think the "four major despairs" mentioned by Li Ming are also true. An autocratic society is a society with no future.Chinese society has not escaped the cycle of war and chaos in the past.However, in my opinion, all "chaos" actually started with "governance", or in other words, "chaos within governance" laid the groundwork for "chaos within chaos".

Xiong Peiyun: I remember traveling in Cambodia one year, and some locals talked to me about it.A few years ago, when it was on the air in China, the most popular saying in society was "When you see injustice, you should take action when it is time to do so".How to understand the "chivalrous spirit" that the Chinese love to talk about? Wang Xuetai: "Legend of the Water General" is a story told by homeless people for homeless people.Nomads call themselves heroes, but in fact the Song Dynasty and its aftermath were the era when "there are not many heroes in the Jianghu". The "chivalrous spirit" originated from the ranger, what is the essence of the "spirit" of "chivalry"?I think there are at least two points: one is altruistic; the other is anti-mainstream.Therefore, only Lu Zhishen is considered a hero in Water Margin. He is not only anti-mainstream, but also saves people without asking for anything in return.On the contrary, most of the fights against injustices by others are based on their own interests.

Mr. Li Fearzhi asked me whether there was a homeless mentality in the West, and I said of course there was, but the religion and aristocratic traditions in the West have reduced the homeless mentality to a certain extent, which is somewhat different from China.Judging from the general historical context, rangers are actually the remnants of aristocratic society, or only after aristocratic society will there be rangers.The main reason why there were so many knight-errants in the Han and Tang Dynasties was that the Pre-Qin Dynasty was an aristocratic society, and many countries established during the Northern and Southern Dynasties (especially the Northern Dynasties) also had aristocratic tendencies.For example, after Qin Shihuang unified China, the aristocracy was eliminated, but the aristocratic spirit that was keen on public affairs could not disappear within one or two generations. These aristocratic spirits were passed down to the Han Dynasty, forming some anti-mainstream, anti-superior, and at the same time Altruistic ranger.Unlike homeless, ranger is a life choice.Why do you want to be a hero?It may be because of conscience, habit, or even being influenced by the works of recording rangers, yearning for an extraordinary life, rather than simply being forced by life.It does not necessarily have any political purpose, but is based on a strong inner pursuit.Like Don Quixote, everyone laughed at him, but if he challenged not a windmill but a real enemy, would we still laugh at him?

Mr. Yan Wenjing once said that China's soil could not produce Don Quixote, only Ah Q, because the aristocratic society disappeared prematurely (compared with Europe, since the Song Dynasty, the culture of nomads has been rampant, while the Tang Dynasty was still somewhat aristocratic, In the Song Dynasty, it was completely a secular society). Xiong Peiyun: That's why Li Bai can have the poem "An Neng smashes my eyebrows and bends my waist to serve the powerful, and makes me unhappy".However, in terms of folk creation and social development, the Tang Dynasty was far less spectacular than the Song Dynasty.

Wang Xuetai: The poets of the Tang Dynasty walked very openly, with a broad vision, and they didn't care about anything, because there was no danger of survival (in the heyday of the Tang Dynasty), and "travel" could only broaden their minds.Du Fu wrote a poem to record his journey of thousands of miles, called "Zhuang You".At this time, there were very few homeless people, and of course there was no environment for homeless people to survive and develop. If they lost their land, they would die, because the city could not support them.Unlike the Song Dynasty, the economy of the Tang Dynasty developed in an all-round way. There were dozens of cities with a population of more than 100,000, while the prosperity of the prosperous Tang Dynasty was mainly concentrated in a few cities such as Chang'an.

Xiong Peiyun: I noticed that whether it was the pre-Qin period or the Northern and Southern Dynasties period you mentioned, the world was divided at that time.Is it possible to think that the emergence of aristocracy depends on the openness of society, and there will be no real aristocratic society in the era of great unification? Wang Xuetai: The aristocratic society is a society of status, and the status of the nobility predestined them to be born to take care of public affairs, and the management of "other people's affairs" came with his status.However, the vast number of farmers, handicraftsmen, and businessmen do not have this kind of power, and naturally they will not have this habit.Liang Qichao said that Chinese people have no public morality and no opportunity to participate in public affairs. How can they cultivate public morality?A status society is not necessarily an open society, and rulers tend to be closed in order to maintain the status system.On the one hand, rangers are keen to manage "other people's affairs", which is a traditional habit of nobles (most rangers in the Han Dynasty came from noble families), and on the other hand, it is also driven by the conscience of young human beings. Xiong Peiyun: Mr. Li Shenzhi mentioned in the preface of "Vagabond Culture and Chinese Society" that the great tradition in China is Confucius, and the minor tradition is Prince Guan.Probably at the beginning of the last century, a British scholar also said that there is a Confucius, a Taoist and a bandit in the heart of every Chinese.How to see this division or generalization? Wang Xuetai: The theory of big tradition and small tradition comes from Academician Li Yiyuan in Taiwan, and it is a method of the Chicago School to investigate cultural sociology.It regards urban culture such as New York as a major tradition, and Mexican Indian rural culture as a minor tradition.I think it is a bit "unsuitable" to use this to describe Chinese traditions.In my opinion, the thousands of years of urban and rural traditions in China are similar and belong to the mainstream culture.If there is a culture that is very different from mainstream culture, it should be homeless culture.But China's homeless culture did not develop in the countryside, but in the cities.Confucius and Taoism refer to the mainstream thinking of Chinese scholars, which is what Li Zehou said is "the complementarity of Confucianism and Taoism". If "bandit" refers to the culture of the vagrants, I think that if we use this to analyze the thinking of scholars after the Song Dynasty, it is "although it is not in the middle, it is not far away." Xiong Peiyun: As you know, the Mo family gradually declined after the Qin Dynasty.Is the "Liangshan Hero" in "Liangshan Hero" the "Mohist who fell into the grass"? Wang Xuetai: I disagree with this point.Mohism used to be a prominent school, and there was a period in history when the world "returned to Mo instead of Yang".In the Spring and Autumn Period, the monarchs, princes, officials, scholars, and common people had their own positions, and everyone had their own "spot" of life. Although it is a bit exaggerated to say that there is no open land and no vagrants in the world, there were indeed very few vagrants at that time. There is a saying in "Zuo Zhuan" that "a doctor has no friends abroad". The Zhou Dynasty established an autocratic regime with vertical rule, and it must guard against "horizontal alliances" under its rule.But in the late Spring and Autumn Period, Confucius began with "Isn't it a joy to have friends coming from afar"?This shows that the horizontal connection of society occurred and developed at that time.This kind of horizontal connection is also the condition for the emergence of Xia. The "Four Gentlemen of the Warring States Period" in "Historical Records" such as Lord Xinling, Lord Chunshen, Lord Pingyuan, and Lord Yuchang are all people who are good at horizontal communication. The word "Xia" originally meant two "villains" between one adult, which means that someone is following, and the "four gentlemen" are all nobles who are followed by a large number of people.This is different from the solitary martial arts in Jin Yong's novels (modern martial arts novels, especially the lone ranger, the author does not understand the traditional "Xia" but is keen to form gangs).Mozi can also be said to be a hero, and many people follow him.Unlike bandits, the Mohists still have their own firm beliefs. Xiong Peiyun: Fan Zhongyan said in "Yueyang Tower" that "if you live in a high temple, you will worry about your people, and if you live far away from the rivers and lakes, you will worry about your ruler".For many people, temples usually mean high power.But the rivers and lakes are different.The Chinese often say that "people are in the rivers and lakes and cannot help themselves" which means "the rivers and lakes are dangerous", and the connotations of "returning to the rivers and lakes" and "retreating from the rivers and lakes" are completely opposite.How to understand "the same temple" and "different rivers and lakes" in the minds of Chinese people? Wang Xuetai: "Jianghu" as a word already appeared in the pre-Qin period, and its original meaning refers to rivers, lakes and seas.This is the first meaning of rivers and lakes, that is, rivers and lakes in nature.The second is the rivers and lakes of literati and bureaucrats, which means a secluded place to avoid fame and wealth.The third is the arena of the vagabonds, and it is also the arena that we are often active in words now.This kind of arena is full of swords, swords, intrigues, and life-and-death struggles.The so-called "always drifting in the rivers and lakes, how can you not be knifed" refers to the rivers and lakes in the Water Margin. When it comes to temples, in China's 2,000-year history, basically every 50 years is changed once, and every 200 years is changed once every 200 years.The largest vertical flow of dynasty changes is the royal family and the vagrants.The life of the former is not guaranteed, and the latter may become a hero, a dignitary, or even an emperor.For example, Zhu Yuanzhang, some people say that he is a farmer, but in fact he has no land, lives by begging for food, has been a wandering monk for many years, and his real identity is a vagabond.The high-ranking emperor and the low-level vagrant seem to be separated by clouds and mud on the surface, and they are sharply opposed, but in fact, the two are often connected in their mentality and way of thinking about problems. Side attack. Xiong Peiyun: Therefore, the scholar-official class who are trapped and in a dilemma usually have both the Confucian spirit of entering the world and the Taoist spirit of being free from clouds and wild cranes. Wang Xuetai: Temples and rivers and lakes are opposite, one is mainstream and the other is recessive.Some spirit of Confucianism is usually indispensable in conquering the world and governing the world.Of course, many things in Confucianism are easy to say but hard to do, and more can only be fantasies.If Confucians ruled a small country with clans as the main body, with tens of thousands of people, it might be okay.What Confucianism wants to solve is the problem of acquaintance society. For example, the "knowledge of shame" it emphasizes is to adjust the relationship between acquaintances.But what needs to be adjusted more in modern society is the relationship between strangers.I remember that at the beginning of liberation, every family had to draft a "Family Patriotic Convention". In fact, families do not need a convention. It is the society of strangers who really needs a convention. Xiong Peiyun: This also reflects from another negative aspect that politics was highly involved in the family at that time, which made family members "defamiliarized" and mistrusted each other. Wang Xuetai: Let’s go back and talk about Wulun.Mencius's "Father and son have relatives, monarchs and ministers have righteousness, husband and wife are different, seniors and children are orderly, and friends have trust" adjusts the relationship between acquaintances.However, China has entered a strange society since Qin Shihuang.How can a society of strangers rule in the same way as a society of acquaintances?In a strange society, more problems are encountered other than the five relationships, which is the so-called "sixth relationship", that is, the relationship between strangers.The most effective way to adjust this relationship is the law.You know the chaos of the Cultural Revolution. At that time, Chinese people basically had no sense of law. Although the "judgment" stated as usual that "the judgment is as follows according to the law", the "law" "in accordance with" is not only unknown to the judge, but even The judge himself does not know.Because the "Public Prosecution Law" was smashed during the Cultural Revolution, the "law" was regarded as a product of the counter-revolutionary revisionist line.The historian Tang Degang said that "two laws ("Constitution" and "Marriage Law") governed China" at that time. In fact, even the "Constitution" had been abolished at that time, so it is more accurate to say that "one "Marriage Law" governed China." Xiong Peiyun: Mr. Liang Shuming once called the relationship between individuals and organizations the "sixth relationship".You once talked about the Chinese phenomenon that "the temple is far away, but the rivers and lakes are very close".As China continues to open up, the rivers and lakes in the sense of vagrants are also opening up and expanding. Is this process also breeding crises? Wang Xuetai: I am worried.In the closed era, peasants accepted what came and went, and believed that unfair life was "should be".When the traditional society disintegrates and the children of farmers leave their hometowns, their horizons will be broadened and their ideas will change.Why do you think the modern revolution was so violent in Hunan?An important reason is that Zeng Guofan took a group of simple rural children out to serve as soldiers.Later Zeng Guofan became famous and disbanded the army in order to avoid suspicion.These knowledgeable, injustice-sensitive, strong, brave, famous, and unpaid "demobilized soldiers" returned to their hometowns and immediately became a serious social problem. Later, there were many gangs in Hunan, and the perfumes in the mountain halls were all related to these people. . Xiong Peiyun: Between temples and rivers and lakes, between the country and society, do Chinese people have other shelters, such as the soul? Wang Xuetai: Li Ao said that intellectuals must first solve the problem of feeding themselves.I think this is very important, and it is true for everyone.China's progress in recent years is firstly reflected in the farewell to the era of Guan Zhong's so-called "making a profit out of a hole".When I wrote the history of Chinese food culture, I mentioned that the reasons for the demise of Xia and Shang dynasties were almost the same - the kings were greedy for women, and they ate and drank without restraint.At that time, the so-called eating and drinking was just a "meat forest and wine pool". What's so good about it?But in the eyes of the lower class, there is indeed nothing more hateful than "eating more and taking more".It should be said that this kind of hatred has a lot to do with everyone's long-term hunger.Now people are pouring so much enthusiasm into eating, which is related to the "material hunger" of the so-called "three-year natural disaster".The cultural revolution was an era of spiritual hunger for intellectuals. Just after the reform and opening up, people once had a rush of spiritual pursuits, but they quickly calmed down, and the pursuit of "eating" is still in the ascendant.Due to the long-term poverty of our nation, there is relatively little pursuit of the spiritual aspect alone, and the "heart" is also ignored, so there are very few psychological descriptions in traditional Chinese novels. Xiong Peiyun: There are some in the Three Kingdoms, but they are more of scheming and trickery.The soul of the Chinese people may be expressed more through poetry. Wang Xuetai: It's different.Generally speaking, people will pay attention to spiritual pursuits only after they have enough food and clothing.Of course, an independent spiritual space exists in the world of literati and bureaucrats.There is a saying in the book "Don't be a prince, just do something noble". Later, the Laozhuang School was derived, and there was a rejection of fame and fortune.The word "river and lake" was first seen in Zhuangzi. Although it refers to rivers, lakes and seas, it has the meaning of vastness and freedom.Zhuangzi sighed with emotion that it is better to forget each other in the rivers and lakes than to be wet with each other and to be wet with each other.But if there is no wide rivers and lakes, it is impossible to "forget each other in the rivers and lakes". Xiong Peiyun: Wang Meng said in the article "The Pre-Modern Times in the Romance of the Three Kingdoms" that some stories of the Three Kingdoms have a strong sense of underworld and mafia stories.It came up with the "Taoyuan Three-Oath", a typical underworld practice and mafia language: "I don't want to be born in the same year, the same month, and the same day, but I hope to die in the same year, the same month, and the same day." The desperate spirit of a bandit.May I ask what are the similarities and differences between temples and rivers and lakes in controlling members of society? Wang Xuetai: Confucianism pays more attention to long-term interests. Since the Western Han Dynasty, temples have emphasized "outside Confucianism and internal law". Confucianism still restricts imperial power to some extent.Therefore, although the imperial power is also autocratic, there is still some room for accommodation when thinking of descendants; while Jianghu is the autocracy of the big brother, they are in an invisible state, they face greater risks, their autocracy is stronger, and they are more likely to be extreme.For example, members of the Hongmen often say, "The elder brother is not big, but the younger brother is not young." In fact, the "big brother" is worshiped by the congregation.The emperor worshiped by the subjects is only a symbol (very distant), but the latter is very specific.For example, Li Kui's worship of Song Gongming is more fanatical and specific than that of the common people for the Son of Heaven.In the dictatorship of the big brother, the rule of the society of acquaintances and the society of strangers coexists. Xiong Peiyun: In this way, the temples and rivers and lakes here can be called "the autocracy of the king" and "the autocracy of the elder brother" respectively.However, the "big king's autocracy" has reached the extreme, and it may not be worse than the big brother's autocracy.For example, in history, once people who dared to start businesses in Nanyang were treated unfairly or were killed outside, the reaction of the Chinese emperor was that the subjects left the country and deserved to die.This tradition can be traced back to the period of Jiang Ziya. It is said that at that time, some common people thought of self-sufficiency on the island. Jiang Ziya thought that he would not cooperate with the then king of Zhou, so he killed him.Now we say that the country should be a "union of free people", but the national ethics above means that the citizens want to "exit the country", or vote with their feet like the common people in ancient Rome (in another sense, "washing hands in the golden basin" ”) is almost impossible.In modern times, the Qing Dynasty's closed-door policy not only suppressed civil rights, but also directly led to the weakening of an empire. Wang Xuetai: In the past, the country was regarded as the home of the emperor, and the people were not allowed to go out.In addition, China is a country where politics and religion are united. People who do not accept the education of the state (leaving their homeland is considered to be out of education) are hostile and regarded as "punishable".This is not what modern countries are after.Not long ago, I told a reporter that the United Kingdom is a good example of population development in Europe and can be compared with China.There is not much arable land in the UK, and the conditions for agricultural production are not very good.In the mid-fifteenth century, there were only 2 million people in Britain, and the number increased by at least 100 times after 500 years.China at that time (equivalent to the middle of the Ming Dynasty) had a population of close to 100 million.Traditionally, there is no concept of resettlement and relocation in Britain. Since the seventeenth century, there has been a spontaneous outward flow, regardless of the government, and later supported by the government.In fact, "colonization" is a neutral word. Before the formation of nation-states (in the 19th century), it was normal for areas with high population density to flow to areas with less population density. What is wrong is that some countries colonized by force and killed aborigines .Since ancient times, the Han people have relocated to their native lands, and have regarded other places as a fearful way; the government not only does not support the outflow of population, but suppresses it. During the Qianlong period, the Dutch killed thousands of Chinese in Borneo. At that time, the Qing Dynasty was still very powerful, and the Dutch were terrified and apologized to Qianlong.But Qianlong said that these "scumbags" went outside to make a living regardless of their ancestors' "tombs".This is the attitude of rulers towards ordinary people going overseas to make a living.When China's population grew to 400 million, it was difficult to feed so many people with the agricultural productivity at that time. It was possible to divert them to Nanyang, but they were banned; they flowed to the northeast, but they were restricted by the Emperor of Manchuria and had wicker borders. The policy does not allow Han people to get involved.As a result, the Northeast has a vast territory and a sparse population, and the Qing rulers could not protect their own land, so that many of them were occupied by Russians from the west.It was not until the end of the Qing Dynasty that the Northeast was opened, but it was already too late.In Siberia and the coastal area, the number of Chinese in the late Qing Dynasty and the early Republic of China was far greater than that of Russians. After the October Revolution, they were either repatriated or assimilated. If the Qing Dynasty did not implement the policy of closing the country, the territory of Asia might not be what it is now.From this point of view, the rulers of all dynasties are responsible for the loss of opportunities for the Chinese in the world.I recently read Zhang Daqian's family letters to relatives in mainland China in the 1960s in "Vientiane". I was deeply moved by the strict control of the population that might migrate out during that extremely difficult period. Xiong Peiyun: Sometimes I think, between the temple and the rivers and lakes, what is most needed is to be able to return to the human heart and individual rights themselves.This also reminds me of Henry Thoreau. He can not only return to the natural world like Walden Pond, but also be independent and guard his own rights. Moreover, his efforts and cultivation have also contributed to the individual value to a certain extent. High above the temple, there is the so-called "civil disobedience" right.In a civil society that realizes universal suffrage, I think every citizen has actually "moved from the rivers and lakes to the temple". Xiong Peiyun: People in ancient times "examined civil servants" through the imperial examination.The imperial examination system is an important way for scholars to enter the temple without entering the rivers and lakes.Mr. Huang Renyu said that in China, "the top is a long piece of bread, which is big and useless. This is the civil official group. The bottom is also a long piece of bread, which is big and useless. This is thousands of peasants. Their organization is mainly simple and similar. The middle-level organization is simple... ...the connection between the upper and lower levels depends on the imperial examination system".Mr. Huang called it "Submarine Sandwich". How do you see the impact of the abolition of the imperial examination on Chinese society? Wang Xuetai: Although the imperial examination system began in the Sui and Tang Dynasties, it really developed in the Song Dynasty, and it was all based on test papers.The imperial examination in the Tang Dynasty was a bit like the selection of workers, peasants, and soldiers during the Cultural Revolution. It was a combination of test papers and recommendations. Whether you could be a Jinshi depended on your reputation in Chang'an, and the formation of your reputation depended on the election of wealthy and famous people.For example, Gu Kuang is to Bai Juyi, Princess Yuzhen is to Wang Wei, besides having good grades, these people have to be recommended by others.But it was different in the Song Dynasty.With the establishment of systems such as transcription, aliasing, avoidance, and court lock-ups, candidates basically decide to take them based on the test papers.Candidates who have not been officials in the three generations accounted for more than 40%, breaking the monopoly of noble officials and wealthy families on official careers.When bureaucrats with imperial examination backgrounds have an advantage in the temple, they will inevitably form an invisible group of literati to stand against the imperial power.The emperor of the Song Dynasty had a clear awareness of "sharing the world with the scholar-bureaucrats". The scholars of the Song Dynasty had factions, but they did not kill each other, and the scholars cooperated better with the court. There are at least three traditional methods of power transfer in China: one is to pass on to descendants through blood, which has been practiced for more than 3,000 years; The selection system completes the transfer of "small power".The cleverness of the imperial examination system is that by selecting very few people into the ruling group (basically one in a thousand), it can mobilize the national scribes to revolve around the imperial examination throughout their lives without thinking about it.Its function is to highlight the imperial power, use institutionalized methods to continuously eliminate important ministers, meritorious officials, and ministers, and promote minor officials.At the same time, it can also give the emperor a good name for selecting talents and appointing talents.The imperial examination system successfully enabled the peaceful transfer of small powers without the cost of killing ministers. Xiong Peiyun: How do you view the ideal of literati to cultivate Qi Zhiping and help the world? Wang Xuetai: Due to the teaching and cultivation of Confucianism, scholars have long been unclear whether they became officials (including the "revolutionary" later) for the sake of prosperity and wealth, or to "benefit the world"?I think there is both fantasy and interest here.In the past hundred years, the intellectual circles have been so deeply involved in the revolution, and they have followed one after another, which is closely related to the "negligence and injustice" of intellectuals, and the "injustice of duty" of so many people is closely related to the abolition of the imperial examination system.The modern school system was introduced after the end of the imperial examination system, which industrialized the mass production of graduates.This mode of production was adapted to the industrial society, but China did not have a corresponding industrial scale at that time, resulting in a large number of graduates who were jobless after they came out.The habit of intellectuals is to "be an official or manage public affairs", so many big intellectuals went to wealthy families or served as aides to warlords, while small intellectuals had to take another extraordinary road if they wanted to get ahead.Therefore, 1905 was a critical year. It abolished the era of the imperial examinations to become an official, and actually created an era of intellectual revolution. Xiong Peiyun: No wonder Mr. Huang Renyu feels that traditional Chinese society cannot be partially reformed. In the past, the relationship between the government and the people focused on respecting men, women, elders and children, and relying solely on the imperial examination system. After the cessation of the imperial examinations in 1905, the upper-level institutions (Superstructure) and the lower-level institutions (Infrastructure) became more disconnected, and the fall of the Manchu Qing Dynasty was even more inevitable. Xiong Peiyun: The 30 years of reform and opening up is also the 30 years for China to rediscover society.To be precise, the current game is more between the state and society, and it is a battle between top and bottom, not left and right.In your experience, what has been the biggest change over the years? Wang Xuetai: It is undeniable that since the founding of the People's Republic of China, for a long period of time, China has been a country with a government but no society.Everyone has a unit or production team.They are both quasi-government and have government functions.Quotations also say that "the dictatorship of the proletariat must be implemented in every village, unit, factory, and school." This unit or production team is somewhat similar to the patriarchal clan network, which implements both protection and control policies for individuals.After the reform and opening up, this kind of "quasi-government" disintegrated. Why is there no society?Because the establishment of socialism needs to realize the comprehensive transformation of the economy and society, many of them are carried out with strong or backed administrative power. The things that belong to the government have also become administrative levels, so one level manages one level, forming a top-down vertical rule.The current progress lies in the gradual withdrawal of the administrative management model with the disintegration of the unit, and a diversified society with horizontal integration as the main body is taking shape.After the reform and opening up, not to mention the development and growth of various institutional economic organizations, many horizontally connected network relationships have also been formed. Xiong Peiyun: In this regard, I think that in addition to the development of social capital characterized by horizontal relationships, the social discourse system has also been fully developed. Wang Xuetai: That's right.I remember that I attended a wedding many years ago, and the sentence that impressed me the most was "Under the great situation of the Great Leap Forward, my sister-in-law married so-and-so".What is the relationship between getting married and starting a family and the "Great Leap Forward"?This is a typical official discourse invading society.The common people do not know what to say without the official discourse!It's scary.We claim to have a civilization of 5,000 years, but we have come to the conclusion that we have no language of our own except what the officials in the newspapers taught us.Today, China not only has an official discourse system, but also has a variety of discourse systems that influence each other.In addition to the official discourses of Xinhua News Agency and CCTV, there are also popular discourses, including the discourses of young people representing the post-80s and post-90s generations, as well as Internet discourses and the discourse system of intellectual groups. Xiong Peiyun: With the development of the Internet and the opening up of society, people can not only "whisper openly" but also "do three push-ups". At the same time, social discourse has also begun to change official discourse. where hope lies. Wang Xuetai: Yes, for example, in the late 1980s, Wu Lengxi wrote an article criticizing the word "media", saying that "media" is "the party's mouthpiece". Using this non-class word will confuse and Weaken the party spirit of the press.The result now?Beijing Broadcasting Institute has been renamed "Communication University of China".This is social progress.In the past, we could not talk about love casually. The so-called "there is no love without reason, and there is no hatred without reason", everything is the human nature of class.Now, it's different.I said that Qin Hui was especially good at inventing words, and his "Huang Zongxi's Law" was adopted by official documents. The same situation also applies to Wu Si and his "hidden rules". Xiong Peiyun: Transforming society has actually started a journey of continuous opening up.To have an open system, there must be an open mind and action.This means that the society should break the outdated self-discipline, constantly create and reorganize its own language, and first liberate itself spiritually.This is also the reason why I said that in China at present, "you acquiesce in your own freedom, and China will move forward".A few months ago, the government once again emphasized the need to "emancipate the mind." Some officials even advocated doing anything that is not prohibited, encouraging social creativity, and allowing society to make mistakes. Wang Xuetai: I often say that fighting for social freedom is like standing inside a rubber band circle.If you stand in the middle, far away from the rubber band, you don’t know how big the space is, so you have to keep getting closer to the rubber band to expand it.Looking back at the social space in China, it is obviously the result of everyone's continuous experimentation.As far as the concept of "expression right" is concerned, in the past it was equated with offering advice and accepting advice in ancient times, which meant that giving advice was originally for the benefit of the authorities, but instead it was punished.Obviously, this kind of argument itself starts from the autocracy of imperial power.In fact, the statement of the right of expression establishes the value of people in the field of speech.As a human being, he needs to express that, in a big sense, it is related to human rights, and in a small sense, it is related to a person's sense of happiness.I am also grateful to those who continue to expand the space of public opinion.Of course, all experiments are only expedient measures, and the most important thing is to establish a system with rules to follow. Xiong Peiyun: You mentioned above that the Confucian ideal has its limitations, and sometimes it is even just a fantasy.The uprisings of homeless people in history often carried the banner of "equaling the rich and the poor, equaling the rich and the poor", and everyone is no stranger to "walking for the sky" in the Water Margin.However, looking back at history, many "righteous deeds" of "acting for the sky" may inevitably end in the end of rape public opinion and "walking for the sky". What is the mystery of "walking for the sky"?Why this fate? 王学泰：在《游民文化与中国社会》里我谈到，“替天行道”这一口号具有临界性，被统治者把它看成反抗的旗帜，统治者有时也可以容忍。它能把广大的具有反抗精神的群众，主要是游民于其他阶层的边缘分子集合到这面旗帜下与政府对抗，也能使具有一定规模的反政府力量向皇权进行投降，接受招安。“替天行道”是一个进可取，退可守的口号。关于这一点，尤其在里有较多的体现。 其实，无论是统治守成，还是想取而代之，凡是有活力的人都有改善现实的追求，推至群体就形成社会理想。儒家讲“大同”设立了一个理想的前途，但历代儒者并不把它当成追求实现的目标，大多只追求小康。大同只是批判社会现实，张扬人类幸福理想的标尺，我想这是聪明的。只有康有为那样的妄人才写《大同书》，真的要建立大同社会。如果他真有机会勉强实施，一定会走向波尔布特式的“共产主义”。 熊培云：雷蒙·阿隆在《知识分子的鸦片》里曾经谈到过类似的观点。 王学泰：自进入文明时代以来，对于美好社会的追求是个永恒的问题。然而社会的利弊往往是人性中的善恶引伸出来的。只要人性没有得到根本的改变，十全十美的社会也不可能出现。遥想五十年前，我们曾想一鼓作气，“跑步进入共产主义”。人们仿佛得了魔怔，做出许多正常人想象不出的事情。前两年，和邵燕祥先生聊天，谈到“三面红旗”我曾说，企望“有点精神”，结果变成“有点精神病”。邵先生填了一首《蝶恋花》（遍地山鸣兼谷应。旗帜争飞，锣鼓喧天竞。一变精神成物用，英明自是夸天纵。振奋三生真有幸。有点精神，有点精神病。直到浇头知水冷，瘟神何待瘟神送），颇能展现当时的现实。我与陈四益先生各和一首。黄一龙先生就此写了篇《我们都曾“有点精神病”》发表在《同舟共进》上。今天我们知道，世界上没有十全十美的标准社会。大家争着挤进天堂，挤进去的可能是地狱。为此我们已经付出了残酷的代价。 儒家、孔子成了当代的大众话题，这是社会进步的表现。的确，我们是从孔子开始才逐渐彰显了人类的“同类意识”。然而孔子肯定了人的价值，但忽略了个体价值。儒家将天、地、人并称“三才”，但是这里只有人类，而个体往往会埋没在整体之中。什么是先进文化？首先是对个体生命价值的弘扬。我想，这个问题在欧洲早就解决了。周作人说过：西洋在十六世纪发现了人，十八世纪发现了妇女，十九世纪发现了儿童。与此相比，到了上世纪八十年代，中国还在争论该不该有人道主义的问题。有人把人道主义视为修正主义思想基础，要严加杜绝。 在思想史上，儒家还是奉献了许多好东西的。我认为其中最重要的是中庸。中庸是一个动态平衡的过程，以恰到好处为宜。犯精神病、走极端却是最简单、最容易做到的。另外孔子强调仁爱、忠恕等观念确比前代有所进步，也比只知有统治者忽视普通百姓的法家更人性化一些。皇权专制社会中作为主流思想的儒家给中国历史涂上了许多亮色。如果两千年都是法家统治，中国的历史将更黑暗。 其实，当前解决中国问题，不需要特别深奥的道理。我们常常与常识作战。几十年中我们做的一些蠢事，恰恰是追求深奥得来的。我们曾经有过“精神病”的时代，这已经过去了快五十年，可以作为反面材料进入我们的病历。可以说这也是我们的精神财富，每当我们头脑发烧，通体发热时就要检查一下会不会现在不太明显了，但是隐性的“精神病”还是有的。