Chapter 17 Jia Zhangke: Collective in Memory

I talked about collective memory with Jia Zhangke in Hong Kong, firstly because these four words are very popular in Hong Kong, and secondly because one of the themes of his recent works is collective memory. Anyone who has read "A Tale of Twenty-Four Cities" or "A Tale of Twenty-Four Cities: Interviews with Chinese Workers" will find that the "collective memory" in it is not just a collective memory in the general sense, nor just a certain society. The collective memory of the group about the past; and what it remembers is basically something called "collective".That kind of "collective" has spread all over China for decades. In it, workers and peasants lived collectively, ate and drank collectively, grew up collectively, worked collectively, and aged collectively; Drifting away, falling into the dark corner of the times.

Why is the once huge and unavoidable "collective" collectively forgotten by the whole society?Why are people who have had this "collective" experience so speechless and unable to tell their own stories?After chatting with Jia Zhangke, I discovered that it is so difficult to dig into the past and find the truth in the wreckage of this "collective" that has just passed away. Liang Wendao (Leung) / Jia Zhangke (Jia) [The working class and the disappearance of collective life] Liang: Why did you have the book "A Tale of Twenty-Four Cities: Interviews with Chinese Workers", and why did you make the movie "A Tale of Twenty-Four Cities"?

Jia: Actually, I wanted to shoot a story about a factory around 1999.Because after the mid-1990s, the transition from a planned economy to a market economy began.During the transformation process, almost all factories encountered economic difficulties, and a large number of workers were laid off.This change is easy to talk about today, but if you understand the position of workers in Chinese society and their living conditions in the past, you will be surprised.Because workers used to be a high-income group, under the planned economy, they didn't have to worry about the products being sold. Their income was very stable and they also had good benefits.Workers at this time are completely different from what we think today, for example, some workers in Dongguan are conceptually different.Because his relationship with the factory is not just a labor contract relationship; his birth, even his life, old age, sickness and death, the factory has something to do with him.For example, in the movie I made, many workers were born in the factory hospital, went to kindergarten in the factory's nursery, and then all elementary and junior high schools were in the factory's children's school. After graduating from middle school, they worked directly in the factory. ; Next, the elderly care, even the end of life, the entire life process will be completed in this factory, and the factory will also give them these guarantees.When the system changed, they became very marginalized in this economy that was developing faster and faster.On the one hand, the income is very low, and on the other hand, because of the change of social status, they have many psychological discomforts.At that time, the mainstream media made a very absurd statement, which was to shift the responsibility to the workers, saying that it was because you were not capable enough and the fittest survived.At that time, I wrote a script called "The Gate of the Factory", and the Lumiere brothers, the ancestors of the film, had made a "Gate of the Factory", and I wanted to use the same name.It was a complete drama. Two friends entered the factory together, became apprentices with the same master, got married almost at the same time, had children almost at the same time, and were laid off at the same time.After being laid off, I thought of a way to save myself, which was to go to a large clothing market to retail clothes.In the process of doing business, the two families had conflicts.After I finished writing this script, I felt that it was actually very similar to "Xiao Wu". In the end, I still talked about money. It stayed too much on the surface of society. I didn't find anything new, so I put this film on hold.By the end of 2006, "The Good Man in Three Gorges" had been filmed. I saw a news that in Chengdu, the land of a large factory had been sold to a real estate company.I was shocked by a set of figures. It turned out that the factory had a history of more than 50 years, with more than 30,000 employees, including their families, a total of 100,000 people.The county where I live has 400,000 people, but the factory already has 100,000 people. It is just a factory.Within a year, all the factories were demolished, and a new building was built.Thinking through this number, it's creepy—all the space of their living memories, the space where hundreds of thousands of people live and die, is like being blown away by the wind, with no trace left.At that time, I thought, why not remake the story of a worker?In fact, since the 1990s, everyone has been talking about the issue of laid-offs; but I think this time apart from laid-offs, there is also a very complicated issue, that is, what was life like in the planned economy in the past?I was born in 1970, and I just entered elementary school in 1977 and 1978. I still remember that my parents had many meetings, and we had meetings every day. Then my sister and I were very scared when our parents couldn’t come back at night, and I felt a sense of fear.

Liang: What are you afraid of? Jia: We live in that kind of big mansion, and people often come in to get things.Some people stewed a pot of sweet potatoes in the kitchen, which was not a very good food, and they were taken away at night.Then I hung out a quilt and forgot to put it away, and it disappeared when I came back from get off work at night.We lived in a cave dwelling, separated from the inside and outside. Once, my sister and I were in the mud house. I heard a noise outside and rushed out to see. A man was really pushing my father’s bicycle and was about to take it away. He saw us. , said: "Wrong way", then turned around and left.Children are still afraid of thieves.At that time, in winter in the north, at eight or nine o'clock in the evening, it was dark, very bleak, very depressed, and the whole city had no lights at all.Mom and Dad don't come back, they are criticizing and fighting in meetings, and they are lighting fires collectively.On the other hand, don't forget the benefits of the system. For example, my mother's work unit bought a small TV, and family members can watch it.But what this collective life is like, I have never really understood, because I...

Liang: Too small? Jia: Too small.It has been 97 years since I graduated from college.After June 4th, basically young people chose to live outside the system. Before I graduated, I decided to do it myself. I didn’t want to waste time in that studio or in the national production unit, so I didn’t live in the system for a day. .Of course, I only have some understanding of the system's harm to people, but I don't know what the truth is like; but it is a collective memory of several generations.For example, like my parents, they have been in the system since they graduated from middle school, they are in the planned economy, and they are in the collective units of the state. We have never talked about it.So after discovering the changes in this factory, I especially want to know what happened to the people who really gave their lives to the system?So this film was decided from the beginning not to be a general feature film, but to make an oral history, chat with the elderly or people who have experienced this kind of life, and tell their stories.In about a year, I interviewed more than a hundred people of all ages, and finally it became a movie and a book.

Liang: Why did the collective life under the planned economy that everyone experienced disappeared, but everyone didn't know what it was about?And people of that generation don't seem to talk about it much, and they don't want to talk much about it.Is there really such a thing as collective memory here?Do you find it difficult to weave what each of them said into a whole; or do you think there is really a collective existence in it? Jia: They have at least the same constraints, the same system, the same time, and the same public events.For example, in 1957, 1958, the anti-rightist movement, the Cultural Revolution, and reform and opening up, the political turmoil behind these huge events has a common experience for them, so the life they feel and what they experience have a commonality.The difference is nothing more than different people's reactions and different ways of dealing with common opportunities.But I'm also very curious, why didn't my parents say this?This is also what I am curious about.

Liang: Why? Jia: I interviewed a worker, a native of Shanghai, who likes literature and art very much.After he arrived at the factory, he had a good friendship with a worker who was assigned to the factory at the same time.Later, he left as a soldier and went to Gansu. They continued to communicate. As a result, this friend of his wrote a novel called "Twenty Years in the Boundless". In fact, the novel was about his dissatisfaction. No criticism at all.But the factory found out that he had this novel, and the title was "Twenty Years in the Boundless", which was very negative.You also know that those 20 years were hot 20 years, and they were also 20 years of continuous achievements in socialist construction. How could he become confused in his heart?So he became a rightist, because of the name of the novel.Then this friend who was far away in Gansu also suffered, and was investigated, because their correspondence was recorded, because they had written letters.Later he returned to the factory, and until the end of the Cultural Revolution, he was still explaining this matter and his relationship with this author throughout his life.Ever since he had a political movement, he was afraid that someone would ask him again: What is your relationship with this person?Do you also have such thoughts, do you also have an accomplice in "Twenty Years in the Boundless"?Later, when I was chatting with him, he said one sentence, which made me feel stunned. I think I can really understand why they are like this.He said, "Xiao Jia, I don't even send a text message on my mobile phone now, I don't want any texts to be read." You think he has really been hurt.From this, I think of my father. My father is a middle school teacher and he likes to write poetry. He has a notebook, which he wrote over the years.After he passed away, I took out this book and read those poems, and then I got to know him.Every poem of his is for the times.When the Great Leap came, we wanted to praise the Great Leap Forward; when the Cultural Revolution came, we wrote about the Cultural Revolution; when the Gang of Four came, we praised the Gang of Four;His age is always correct and hot in his poems.This conceals a real inner world of his, and he has to pay the price.At that time, I felt that there was a price to be paid for daring to speak and write. Such a sense of fear, a Chinese teacher in Shanxi is the same as a worker in Chengdu. I think this is a common experience for them. A shared memory is created.

Liang: But this kind of common memory sounds a bit strange, because common memory needs something to carry, for example, poems written by your father, or some materials written by many people at that time.But these things and this kind of memory may seem unreal to us today, as if they were imposed on you by a society. What kind of memory is this kind of memory?Could there be a tampered with, or an imposed ingredient in it? Jia: I think it has an element of self-protection.Why is it possible to make a movie today to tell a relatively real memory?Also because times have changed.The worker was unwilling to send a text message, but he was already old, let alone in the hospital, so he felt that he still had to speak out.When I first interviewed, one of the biggest difficulties was that when you make an appointment for an interview, the interviewee will first say that he has no story.They said, I don't have any stories, don't waste two hours interviewing.They have a judgment about their experience, feel that it has no value, and these are obstacles.On the other hand, because that life in the past is what they chose.It is very fresh to enter the factory, and they are really proud. They also really feel that this economic system can at least change their lives, change their opportunities, and change the country.After so many years, those things he believed in were reversed, and the older the elderly, the more inclined he was to protect his past choices.He will always remind you that I miss that era a lot and I think my youth was worth a lot.I don't think they will deny that era, so this book must retain a part of this memory, because I think it is a real state.And we have to understand what is a real memory, we also need to have our own judgment, we need to use our imagination.

Liang: Indeed, when people look at such an era of collective life, it is easy to think that it is very gray, there are many scary things, and it is very negative.But in this interview, there are many people nostalgic for that era.It involves a problem, that is, the status of workers has changed too much. In the past, they were working class, but now they are wage earners and working girls. The whole concept has completely changed.The working class is the master of the country; the working class and the working girl are working for the boss, which is a completely different position.A certain collective life, a certain social system and values ​​are over.In addition, when we Hong Kong people are talking about collective memory, what is the coordinate of that collective memory, a thing that can make everyone have a common feeling is relatively vague.But in mainland China, that group is really very distinct.

Jia: I remember reading a letter written by Shen Congwen to his friend in the early 1950s. There was a sentence in it that said, I decided not to write much, because this is an era that requires the integration of the whole society. Not suitable anymore.I was shocked when I saw it. He is really a prophet. He immediately understood that this system is to create a situation of uniformity and unified actions.In that collective life, something invaded the daily life of the people.We used to say that communities are divided by residences. For example, I live in this street.But collective life is divided by unit, what factory am I, what brigade am I, and what army am I.Everyone uses such a unit to establish their own identity.Why did I mention my parents and their meeting just now, because I think it has invaded my home.Collective life invades people's private space, you don't even have your own time, everything about you is in the organizational system.You don't even have the right to leave the factory, you can only transfer jobs, and you are still in the organizational system.If I am unhappy in a company today, I will leave and change jobs.At that time, you couldn’t do it. You were very uncomfortable here, and your only solution was to transfer, and how to transfer still needed to be organized.Later, when I was making movies, I often wondered why many of our movies are so empty, that is to say, there is no daily routine and no details.That was a pattern of that life in the past.At that time, as soon as I filmed my personal world and my personal feelings, I felt that something was wrong, and it seemed that it should not appear in the movie.

【Ambiguous Story】 Liang: Are your interviewees aware of this memory, this powerful collective that once existed? Jia: I think generally speaking, most people are unconscious.He may have a lot of complaints about the reality, but he lacks such reflections on his entire life and the era of planned economy.There are also some people who are good at thinking, reflect on their own lives, and reflect on the entire social change in China.But most people can only find a way to live in today's daily life, so you can see that mahjong has become a major pastime, and they use mahjong to occupy all the time and space.I recalled the first time I entered that factory. It was really spectacular. It was not a courtyard, but several streets and roads, with a police station and a long-distance bus station inside, forming a self-contained community.But basically, it is full of mahjong from nine o'clock in the morning, stop at lunch time, take a nap in the afternoon, and mahjong again from two o'clock until night. Liang: But they will always realize the end of an era, right? Jia: I think this point is very clear.Many people will easily say "we were sacrificed" and they will use the word "sacrifice"!Then he immediately added, "Of course society must improve."It seems that we workers have temporarily paid for the progress of the country, and can gain a sense of pride and maintain the last self-esteem for ourselves. Liang: Do you think young people have a strong sense of having experienced a change in the times?We are the same age, do you think there will be such a feeling among our generation in mainland China? Jia: Why does the mainland keep talking about the post-70s and post-80s, and use time to divide people? I think it still makes sense.For example, if a person was born in 1980, he was sensible in 1987 or 1988. At that time, material wealth was relatively abundant, and society began to loosen. Then after he really received education, his impression of the planned economy may not be as deep as that of the 1970s. .Because those of us in the 1970s will have an impression of this group, and even remind you to take a shower.For example, when I was a child, there was no hot water at home, but my father was at school, and the school had a bathhouse. Because my father was in this group, I could use the bathhouse of this group, so I would clearly know the relationship between this group and our past. Had a life. Liang: This year marks the 20th anniversary of the end of the Cold War.But I have always been curious about China being one of the two sides of the Cold War in the past. For us, is the Cold War really over?This is a very ambiguous question.You can see that the collapse of Eastern Europe and the Soviet Union was very clear and changed very cleanly, so their citizens will clearly realize that everything in the past has been subverted, and then they can clearly express their position on the past.But I found that it is difficult for the Chinese to tell a very accurate time point for the end of the Cold War, and they have no concept of this process of collective change.For example, can we say which year the Cold War ended?Is it Nixon's visit to China?Is it the establishment of diplomatic relations between China and the United States?Is it reform and opening up?It seems that the Cold War is really over, but we didn't declare it, we just changed vaguely, and it became very powerful.But do you think it has really become thorough?We are definitely not as violent as Eastern Europe.So we are in a very ambiguous post-Cold War era.Looking back on your past in such an atmosphere of the times, you can't say clearly: "The past is over, we are starting again now."Instead, there is a vague, ambiguous connection between the past and the present. Jia: Your idea is also what I have been thinking about.That factory was actually a military factory in the past, and it produced engines for fighter jets of the People's Liberation Army Air Force.It itself is a product of the Cold War. Out of fear of war, the country transferred these military factories to the mountains in the southwest.In this film, a family lost their child during the transfer.The transfer of a factory is related to the shadow of war.The Cold War background of this factory is over, the collective life is over, and an era of planned economy is also over.But what is behind the planned economy?That's socialism!But we cannot say it is over, because until now, we are still "socialism with Chinese characteristics".We can only say that an economic model under socialism has been reversed, and the collective life of the past is gone.But the spirit of collectivism remained, and it was soon combined with patriotism, with the same response of all.For citizens, this is always a time without ego.And you see, to this day there is a "hostile Western power".It can be changed and combined at any time.A today, B tomorrow, purely pragmatic political manipulation.If you oppose you today, then you are a hostile force, but tomorrow we can reconcile... Liang: Obviously we have bid farewell to the planned economy of yesterday, but we said it very quietly; obviously the socialist system has changed, but we do not admit it.So today's memories of the Cold War, collective life, and the socialist system are also ambiguous and chaotic.When you are dealing with this topic, what do you find particularly difficult? Jia: I think the most difficult thing is that any kind of memory is mixed with personal youthful memories, forming a kind of temperament.No matter the circumstances, youth has its beauty.For example, many old workers miss that we had a basketball team. We played basketball every day, so happy.So the joy of your youth is confused with the collective life of that factory. Liang: If a person grows up in prison, he might feel happy at that time. Jia: Yes, he will feel that he is very strong, at least physically different from the vicissitudes of old age now.And at that time, there may be love and unrequited love.Then, the first affection for love is beautiful no matter what the environment is.Whether you miss that youth or the system, you can't tell. Liang: Nostalgia always has a sense of distance from the current reality, a little discomfort, and even dissatisfaction and resistance.Do you think their memories all contain an attitude towards the present? Jia: First of all, they are clear about the reality. The difference in income alone is completely clear at a glance.The decoration of almost all workers' dormitories stays in the 1980s, 1988 and 1987.That is to say, many families have not changed since then, and even the TV is still from that era.Completely stagnant, after being thrown away by time and speed, the difference becomes bigger and bigger every year.This sense of stagnation in the lives of workers, I think everyone is aware of it.But from time to time they would get caught up in flashbacks and say that I just found a reason to calm myself down, that's all. Liang: Your past works dealt with and described the early 1980s a lot, which made everyone feel that it was a memory of people who lived in the 1970s and 1980s.You are now in the 1980s in reality. It seems that the time difference in China is very serious. Some people are still living in the 1980s. How does it feel? Jia: How should I put it, in fact, this feeling already existed before filming "Twenty-Four Cities".I especially like to go to northern Shaanxi, because my hometown is not far from it, separated by a river, and it is a short drive away.After going to northern Shaanxi, it feels like you still saw old people in mandarin jackets in the 1990s.The character, style and material of that place stayed 49 years ago, and it seems that there has been no development since then.The Three Gorges is another case.The country has always said that the reservoir area should be built, but some people said that it should not be built. In the end, it adopted a method of not investing in it and letting the place fend for itself.The density inside is extremely high, layer upon layer, and there are houses on the roof, as if weeds are overgrown, and there is no plan at all.In the end, you will find that the miracle of reform in the 1980s actually happened in only a few places, and those places were mistaken for the situation in China as a whole.Everyone said that the Olympic Games in China are also going on, and how the economy is advancing, how great it is.But in fact poverty is a big problem, because the wealth is very concentrated, many farmers and workers are abandoned in groups, no one thinks about them, they just use the simplest method to deal with it, thinking that it will be done. Liang: Usually when we talk about collective memory, we always think that I am a part of this memory, and I am also the keeper of this memory.Your early works give people the feeling that what you shoot is part of your memory, but now when you are dealing with these subjects, your identity has changed a little bit, hasn't it? Jia: For me, being among the workers, or entering areas like the Three Gorges, including my travels to northern Shaanxi, really can no longer be said to be my life, and I would feel uneasy.This uneasy feeling makes me think that you are opening yourself up.Because after living in Beijing for a long time, I feel that the situation in Beijing is the situation in the whole of China, and this is my situation.But when you go to those areas, you feel that I am living this kind of life, but others are living that kind of life. This is a very simple sense of difference.But I think there is an emotional connection behind it, because I am too familiar with this kind of life and this kind of crowd, and I came out of this kind of crowd. Liang: Do you think the stories they told are actually part of your memory? Jia: Not all of them, because some of them are indeed beyond my experience and imagination.I didn't expect this group to have an astonishing level of trust in the system.That sense of trust was really beyond my expectations.I interviewed a worker. You can imagine her mental state from her attitude towards her body. She didn’t know from pregnancy to miscarriage, and she didn’t even know what happened to her body. The eldest sister said: You have a miscarriage!She just started to grieve, and she didn't know she was pregnant and then had a miscarriage.What kind of group and what kind of way of life is this?Another girl had her finger cut off when she was nineteen.After her finger was cut off, she was hospitalized and said that she was very happy every day.I asked why you don't worry.She said that even if a finger is broken, it can grow back!From their ignorance of their own bodies, we can see their trust in that factory and system.After all this changed, she felt abandoned. Liang: What you said reminds me of a story written by Qian Gang. During the Tangshan earthquake, some victims were crushed under the house, and his whole family died. The first sentence is: "How is it? Is Chairman Mao okay?" "Don't worry, Chairman Mao is fine." "It's fine." 【secretion and learning】 Liang: Speaking of creation, you may have a lot of experience in your previous works, but now you have become relatively passive, waiting and listening.Can you elaborate on the difference between these two states? Jia: There is a part of my creation that I call secretion. It is like exhaling. You have it without knowing it. It is a function of your body.For example, "Xiao Wu" and "Platform" are a very natural secretion.Everyone chooses their own career, there must be his reason.I choose movies myself because I have actually experienced some things and have some stories I want to tell.I used to write poems, and later I painted pictures. I always feel that there are still things that have not been said.Only then did I feel that movies were a better way, so I became a director.These writings and these films are all naturally secreted.But I think there is another kind of creation called learning, and this learning may come from your interest.For example, I’m shooting history now because I don’t know much about history. I have some things I want to know, what the truth is; because there is something I feel but I don’t know clearly, so I use movies to pursue people’s truth for me. Life.This documentary approach opens up an unfamiliar world and explores a history that I value and that interests me.I think making a film is like studying history. You are interested in it but at the same time you don’t know it very well, so you collect a lot of information, do interviews, and finally it becomes your result. "A Tale of Twenty-Four Cities" and "Shanghai Legend", which is currently being filmed, are both in this state of creation. It is really different from my previous creations. Liang: You used to be a literary youth, wrote poems, and later went to make movies, but you still write, right?What do words and images mean to you?For example, "A Tale of Twenty-Four Cities" is both a movie and an interview. Why do you want to do these two things at the same time? Jia: When I first started liking movies, they were actually quite romantic.I have many cousins, one of them is illiterate, he can't read.At that time, I just finished watching "Yellow Earth", and I thought it was good, and you could read it even if you were illiterate. I thought the media was very humane, and then I convinced myself that it was the best.If you want to convince yourself to do this business, you have to find many reasons. Liang: Even the illiterate can understand movies. Jia: As long as you can listen and read well, you can understand.Of course, illiteracy is rare now, and this humanitarian reason has disappeared.But the movie is intuitive, and there's a lot that goes beyond words.For example, when I was shopping in Temple Street, I saw some people who set up a stall, and they were eating with a lunch box at night. I thought that just taking pictures of him eating could explain his state of existence, and it didn’t take a lot of words to make people understand. , which is the advantage of the film.But structurally, the film is a story relay.For example, one person can talk about the 1950s, another can talk about the 1960s, and another can talk about the 1970s.The movie is divided, and it is necessary to use a relay method to string different people into a big main line to interpret.Books are different. Everyone is independent, and everyone can start talking about themselves. They are independent things one by one.Moreover, after making the movie, you will feel that it is not enough. There are some things that the movie did not capture.For example, a female engineer, the first time I met her, I found that her appearance was very delicate, and you could see her respect for herself.Maybe she's laid off, she's out of work, and her clothes are still in the 80s; but she's neat, and you can feel that she still maintains a kind of elegance.Sure enough, she talked about her most memorable trip to Italy in the 1980s to learn technology, which was the most unforgettable memory in her entire memory.And she also told us how she arrived in Shenzhen, first received an education abroad, then came to Hong Kong, and then how to fly to Hong Kong.You will find from her appearance that she has reservations about the details of her past life. She has many photos, a passport issued by Shenzhen, and meal tickets at that time.I had an urge to write it down, and that part was not captured in the film. Liang: How did the audience and readers respond to this project?Especially those who have memories of life in that era, and young people who do not have these experiences. Jia: I think the reaction of young people is particularly interesting.After the movie was over, a very young reporter came. As soon as he sat down, he said to me, "Director, I think your movie is terrible." I was startled and said, "Well, I'm sorry, this The movie was not made well.” Then he said, “I tell you, I grew up in such a factory, and my parents lost their jobs after I entered junior high school. But let me tell you, our family is very happy. Everyone Helping each other, cooking together, each family made different dishes for each other, we lived very happily, why did you make this movie as if we were miserable and gloomy?" I said, you really sure you are very happy happy?I have met many mothers, and they all have a consensus that they must never tell their children about the pressure they are under.They should try their best to create happiness. If they cry every day, they will not be able to live. There must be many ways to be happy.Children cannot deny the difficulties your parents have experienced because of this.Another girl cried from beginning to end.During the exchange, she was the first to raise her hand, saying that she grew up in such a factory, and her parents had a very difficult life.It can be seen that there is a question of approval or disapproval here, so the attitude towards this movie is very extreme, even for people with experience.Some people agree very much, and feel that the life we ​​have experienced is finally told in a book or movie.Some people will stand up and say: "I like this movie very much. It shows the dedication of our workers. I thank the director for your understanding of us!".In addition, some will say that our youth is lost in this way.