Chapter 23 Volume 3 Chapter 6

Socrates used the method of questioning to guide the young man who was very eager to get a government position to admit that he did not have the necessary knowledge to hold the desired position.Socrates then explained that a ruler who does not have accurate knowledge of state affairs cannot do good to the state or honor himself. Ariston's son Glaucon was not yet 20 years old, and because he wanted to be a leader in the city-state government to speak to the crowd, no one among his relatives and friends could stop him, so that he would not be thrown from the pulpit. Jokes dragged on and off; only Socrates kindly cares and stops him for Harmides and Plato's sake.

Once, when he met him by chance, Socrates stopped him in order to make Glaucon willing to listen to his own words, and said to him: "Hey, Glaucon, are you determined to be the leader of our city-state?" "I do think so, Socrates," Glaucon replied. "That's very good, and if there is a good thing in the world, it is a good thing. For it is clear that if your purpose is accomplished, you will get what you want; you will be able to help your friends; for Your family will be famous, your country will be honored; your fame will first spread throughout the city, and then throughout Greece, and you may be famous among the Gentiles like Themistocles; you will No matter where you go, you will be admired by people."

Glaucon was very happy when he heard these words, so he stayed happily. Socrates continued: "It seems obvious, Glaucon, that if you want to be respected, you must contribute to the city?" "Exactly," Glaucon replied. "I beseech you in the name of the gods, do not hide from us, but tell us how you intend to begin to do good to the city," said Socrates.But when Glaucon was silent considering where to start, Socrates went on to say, "For example, when you want to make a friend's family prosperous, you will try to make it richer, Are you also trying to make the city rich?"

"Of course," Glaucon replied. "Wouldn't it be richer if its taxes were more adequate?" "Probably so." "Then, please tell me," said Socrates, "where does the city-state's taxation come from at present, and how much is the total? In order to make up for the deficiency, so that the deficiency can be made up from new sources, there is nothing to be done. Doubt, you must have thought about these issues." "To be honest, I haven't considered these issues yet," Glaucon replied. "If you are negligent in this respect," said Socrates, "then please tell us about the expenditures of the city-state. For it is obvious that you must intend to reduce those items which are too expensive."

"Honestly," Glaucon replied, "I haven't had time to think about it yet." "Then," said Socrates, "we have to suspend for the moment the question of making the city rich, for how can we take care of these things when we don't even know their expenditures and revenues?" "However, Socrates," said Glaucon, "we can enrich the city by sacrificing our enemies." "That may indeed be the case, if we are stronger than the enemy; but if we are weaker than the enemy, we shall lose everything we have." "You're telling the truth," Glaucon replied.

"Therefore," said Socrates, "whoever considers whom to fight must know the strength of the city and the strength of the opponent. If the strength of the city is greater than that of the enemy, he can advise her to attack the enemy; If you are an enemy, you should advise her to be cautious." "You're right," said Glaucon. "Then," said Socrates, "tell us first of the power of the city-state's army and navy, and then of the power of the enemy." "No, I can't just tell you from memory." "Then," said Socrates, "if you have written them down, please bring your notes, for I would love to hear them."

"To be honest, it's impossible, because I haven't memorized it yet," replied Glaucon. "Then," said Socrates, "let us suspend for a moment also the consideration of war. Perhaps because of the importance of these problems, and because you have just begun to lead, you have not had time to study them carefully. But , the question of national defense, I think it will be your present concern, and you must also know how many fortifications are properly arranged and how many are not, how many defenses are needed and how many are not enough, and You must also suggest that those fortifications which are well placed should be strengthened, and the superfluous should be demolished."

"Nevertheless," replied Glaucon, "I propose to dismantle them all, for they are so poorly defended that our property has been secretly stolen from the land." "If the fortifications are dismantled," Socrates asked, "do you think that would give people the right to rob at will?" Then he asked: "Have you ever gone out to check? In other words, How do you know that the defense is not good?" "Based on conjecture," Glaucon replied. "Then," said Socrates, "shall we also put this question aside for a while, until we know for sure, and not just guess?"

"Maybe that's better," Glaucon replied. "As for the silver mines," said Socrates, "I believe you have never been there, so you cannot tell us the reason why the taxation of silver mines is now less than before." "I really haven't been there," Glaucon said. "To tell the truth," said Socrates, "it is said that it is unsanitary, and that should be a sufficient excuse for you when it is necessary to discuss the subject." "You're joking," Glaucon protested. "However, I know that there is one thing that you have not neglected, but have seriously considered. This is: How long can the grain produced in the fields sustain the city-state's residents? How much food is needed every year? Whenever famine occurs through your negligence, you can advise the city, help her, and save her because of your knowledge of the necessities of life."

"The task you're talking about is too big, if you have to take care of things like this," said Glaucon. "However," said Socrates, "unless a man knows all the needs of his family, and endeavors to satisfy them, he cannot heal his house well. It is difficult to meet the needs of so many people at the same time, why not try to solve the needs of the family first, that is to say, start by improving the welfare of your uncle's family? And his family really has this kind of need! If you can help one family, you can start to help more people; if you can’t even help one family, how can you help many people? Wouldn't it be obvious to try a heavier serving?"

"However," said Glaucon, "as long as he listens to my advice, I can help my uncle's family." "Why?" Socrates asked, "you can't even persuade your own uncle, do you want the whole Athenian people including your uncle to listen to you?" Then he said, "Glaucon, be careful, you want to be famous, don't make it counterproductive! Can't you see how dangerous it is to say or do things you don't understand? Just think of the many people you know Other people with this kind of temperament, they are obviously saying or doing things that they don't understand. In your opinion, do people like this get more praise or condemnation? Who is more respected or despised? Think again of those who say what they know and do what they know, and you will see, I think, that in all things Those who are honored and praised are those who are most knowledgeable, and those who are condemned and despised are those who are most ignorant. If you really want to be famous in the city and praised by everyone, do Strive to acquire the widest knowledge of what you desire to do, for if you can excel others in this, you will easily obtain what you desire when you take up the affairs of the city. Not surprising."