Chapter 36 An Economist's Reason and Emotion

The conversation with Chen Zhiwu lasted for two and a half hours, not only longer than I expected, but also the depth of the conversation. Chen Zhiwu seems to be a down-to-earth person, and it is difficult to read too many expressions from his face. This may be the reason for his long-term rigorous rational thinking and the establishment of numerous data models as a finance professor.But in this interview, I saw his extremely rich emotional state of thinking about China's reality.During the interview, when he talked about the sufferings of the Chinese people due to the lack of system construction in China, he couldn't hold back his excitement and shed tears.At that moment, as a person who had only been in the United States for more than ten days, it was difficult for me to fully understand him who had lived and worked in the United States for more than ten years, but his feelings and concerns for China brought me countless thoughts.

I took a course related to China in the history department. In the class taught by Barrett about modern Chinese history, she introduced China like this: a country with an ancient civilization that has invented four things and has had a profound impact on human civilization. Contributing to China became silent later, and then fell asleep. She slept for hundreds of years. More than 20 years ago, she suddenly woke up.This description is indeed very interesting. This is not a conceptual description, but a very vivid and thought-provoking narration.Sitting under the class are white people, yellow people, and black people from all corners of the country.I was wondering how they would imagine China today from this introduction.

What Chen Zhiwu was excited about and worried about was, of course, the situation in China where a long-sleeper wakes up. Her situation is closely related to the living conditions of every Chinese in it. Chen Zhiwu came from a backward rural area in Hunan. After finishing his university and postgraduate studies in China, he brought dozens of dollars to the United States. He completed a doctorate in finance at Yale University, then taught at Ohio University, and finally became a tenured professor at Yale University.The contrast between the poor and simple rural life in the past and the rich and fulfilling life of urban intellectuals in him should be extremely strong. I have also seen people who have experienced such a strong contrast. In them, this kind of polarization The experience will gradually make a person think about more problems, that is to say, he or she is not a scholar, he or she is also thinking, because this kind of thinking is not a general problem exploration, but is associated with one's own warm memory.

I believe that everyone who does anything comes from the deepest motivation, and this motivation is like an invisible motor driving every soul to walk along a line that they may not have expected at the beginning. Chen Zhiwu's major is finance, but his current research field has expanded a lot, and he is concerned about many problems in social development related to economy.At the time when he was crying, I basically understood why he focused on such a wide range of objects. I had always wanted to ask this question, but I think I did understand.In recent years, what he called the most is about China's system construction. China is undergoing rapid changes in a real sense. Following this change should be a series of systems, at least the establishment of an institutional framework, and then a little bit of refinement. Otherwise, the accumulated wealth of society will not be able to support sustainable development.

From the perspective of system construction, he discussed many issues such as finance, farmers, and foreign trade. These issues all reflect his thinking on China's issues, and many issues are derived from a problem that he is thinking about.His current state is in two countries with different cultures and different stages of economic development. He returns to China many times every year. This kind of walking on the stage of multiculturalism makes his thinking always put China in the first place. It is done in the context of world historical development and in comparison with many countries.Many of his ideas are inspired by the intersection of his historical and geographical perspectives.

◎Reporter: Hello, Professor Chen, I have been reading your articles this morning. In many articles, what you appeal to the most is the importance of system construction for the sustainable development of the country, but how to build it?Can you give us some examples in areas you are familiar with. Chen Zhiwu: My recent articles have been dealing with this issue, especially the openness of the news field and the independence of the judiciary. I have been exploring this aspect for the past three years.In the financial field, I think many people have seen the importance of system construction that is conducive to market development. As for us, we may just say what many people have not said.As for system construction, it is important to start with some details and explain to people why these system constructions are important from specific aspects, rather than making everyone feel that this is important.For this question, I spent three years collecting a lot of data and researching these questions.I like to go back to the Chinese society two hundred years ago, or three or four hundred years ago.

At that time, the traditional Chinese social system and structure were almost sufficient for the scope and scale of economic activities at that time. For example, the towns and villages in my hometown in Hunan Province did not communicate very much, but in that area where agriculture was the main In today's society, market transactions are relatively simple, and within a small range of acquaintances.In that simple trading environment, those independent formal judiciaries or news media are not that important to economic transactions, because after all, people who deal with each day are relatively familiar people, and there are traditional moral constraints between acquaintances, so Whether there is a judge to help people mediate disputes is not very important, and also because the next generation will live in the same village and the same place. In Chinese society, there are constraints among familiar people.With these constraints in place, there is little need for formal justice and news media in that society.

However, the situation today is completely different. The development of transportation and communication has integrated different regions of the entire Chinese society into an overall economic market. This large-scale cross-regional integration has never been seen in Chinese history.When a cross-regional market transaction occurs, who should I contact if there is a problem?And more transactions are one-time, at this time the traditional moral constraints will not work, because now more are cross-regional transactions between strangers.At this time, if the judicial system cannot keep up, there will be problems, such transactions will be suppressed, and people will avoid cross-regional markets.In this way, the potential of physical convenience provided by China's existing transportation and communication networks cannot be brought into play.After the transportation and communication hardware comes up, it is very important whether the software such as the rule of law can keep up. Otherwise, people will spend a long time judging whether to start this business, and the transaction cost of doing it will be too high.So the independence of the judiciary and the confidence in its reliability will determine how much we can do with the transportation and communications we have.Here, the role of an open and free news media is also very important. It is also a necessary condition for promoting the deepening of the cross-regional economic market. It can help clear the information environment necessary for market transactions and reduce the space for fraud and fraud.

◎Reporter: What you said just now mainly talked about the importance of judiciary and news media under the precondition of forming a unified national market today, so how to establish it? Chen Zhiwu: Relatively speaking, compared with the previous 20 years, the news media's system construction is going better, and the degree is much faster than the judicial reform. ◎Reporter: What degree do you mean? Chen Zhiwu: System construction.It refers to the fact that when the media has different voices, there is not as much suppression as before. ◎Reporter: Is this system construction? Chen Zhiwu: Institutional construction includes two aspects, one is tangible, which refers to written things, and the other is intangible, and intangible institutional construction is more important than tangible ones.For example, in the past, students learned about economics through the course of political economics, and this course taught us two concepts, one is exploitation, and the other is the cruelty of capitalists. I have a not-so-good view of the globalized economy, and I think of "exploitation" when I see rich people.This shows that the construction of a tangible market system is one thing, but the construction of an "intangible" conceptual system that supports market development is another.Without the latter, the resistance to market development will become greater and greater.Today, as China is becoming more and more market-oriented, the popularization of market economics knowledge is still so little, and it is still stuck in the "exploitation" economics of 30 or 40 years ago. This actually planted a bomb for China's future development. This instability is very dangerous.If ordinary people only understand basic economic concepts like this, they will have problems as soon as they see the uneven distribution of wealth in the market.That's why I say that the construction of intangible institutions includes the understanding, acceptance, and recognition of each tangible institution by the whole society. These are too important, otherwise social shocks will easily occur.

◎Reporter: Do you mean that Chinese society agrees with some of the news media? Chen Zhiwu: People still have a certain degree of recognition of open news media.China's press law has not yet been issued. In a sense, the absence of a press law is not necessarily a bad thing, because on the contrary, it may give the press and legal circles some room for innovation. ◎Reporter: In what sense? Chen Zhiwu: It depends on what kind of news law it is. If it is a restrictive news law, it is not good.Two years ago I collected more than 200 cases involving media-related lawsuits. In fact, by studying these cases, in news-related lawsuits, from 2001 to now, the frequency of judges ruling media infringement has become less and less, which shows that the entire The psychological acceptance and understanding of media freedom in society is growing.There is also an interesting phenomenon here. When the media loses the lawsuit, the judges punish the media more and more every year. What I feel from this is that people are becoming more and more disgusted with the irresponsible abuse of press freedom and irresponsible people.The intangible institutional construction of the media I mentioned refers to these aspects, and refers to the deepening of society's recognition of press freedom.

◎Reporter: In terms of judiciary, what about the invisible system construction? Chen Zhiwu: Many laws have been passed in these years, and no period in history can compare with the number of laws we have passed now.But in contrast, its invisible construction of the rule of law is not so satisfactory. ◎Reporter: How can the judgment not be so good? Chen Zhiwu: People's awareness of the rule of law is not very strong in many aspects, including political reasons and cultural and traditional reasons. ◎Reporter: So what is the relationship between the tangible system and the intangible system in the judicial field in the United States? Chen Zhiwu: In terms of legal research, the best rule of law is that ordinary people don’t feel the existence of the law in their daily life, but they still don’t break the law. The law cannot be realized, and the cost of its implementation will be too high, which will damage the dignity of the law.For example, in American society, there are tens of thousands of business transaction contracts every day, but if you do a survey to see how many of the 100 contracts signed every day need to be resolved in court, you will find that it is far lower than 1%.This shows that people's intangible concepts have a deeper understanding of the tangible legal system.Only in this way can the whole society function effectively, without feeling that the cost to the society for the implementation of the rule of law is too high. ◎Reporter: In your opinion, what needs to be strengthened in China's judiciary? Chen Zhiwu: If it is connected with the discussion on state-run and private-run, it may be more illustrative. ◎Reporter: What is the relationship between state-run and private-run and the rule of law? Chen Zhiwu: If you want to choose between state-owned enterprises and private enterprises, there is no doubt that private enterprises are the best choice. In the history of human history and civilization, if you go to see which countries are established by state-owned enterprises, there are almost none.State-run operations were mainly conducted at the end of the 19th century, especially after World War II, when a large experiment was carried out around the world.This experiment mainly started in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, and then expanded to Asia, Africa, Latin America, and even Western Europe.If there are one or two large state-owned enterprises in an industry, it is impossible for this industry to have real market-oriented development, it is impossible to give the people any room for entrepreneurship, and it is impossible for that industry to have a good rule of law.We talk about in political science, what is a country, there is a definition that the country is the only organization that can legally use violence.If you have a thousand companies in the entire industry, one of which is state-controlled and the rest are all private, then these private companies cannot compete with this state-owned company, nor can they be at the same level compete.Because the main boss of state-owned enterprises is the state, and the state can legally use violence, and the state also operates the court judicial system, how can there be a truly fair and equal rule of law in that industry?With "privileged super corporations" such as state-owned enterprises, the rule of law principle of "everyone is equal" cannot be implemented, and the judiciary cannot be independent. ◎Reporter: What does violence mean? Chen Zhiwu: I said today that this table can only be sold for 10,000 yuan. If any private enterprise wants to sell it for 500 yuan, I will ask my major shareholder, the government, to shut you down.Therefore, you have to choose 10,000 yuan to sell, and you cannot compete with me. ◎Reporter: Today's market is not the kind of market you mentioned. We can't see such behavior happening, and it's impossible for it to happen. Chen Zhiwu: This is rather extreme, but if you really want to use this power, then there is no problem.It is hard to say that China's gasoline industry is not like this today. There used to be many private gas stations, but PetroChina and Sinopec have made many private gas stations "illegal" through the government. There are still many such examples.In almost all countries there should be no state-owned firms in competitive fields.In fact, apart from violence, the state still has the power to legislate, and it can also use regulations to crowd out competition. ◎Reporter: According to your statement, almost no state-owned enterprises can exist in any competitive field. Is this the case in the United States? Chen Zhiwu: Even highways, parks, and prisons in the United States are operated by private companies in the form of contracts. ◎Reporter: Will all the developed countries in the world be in such a situation? Chen Zhiwu: At present, many countries still have the phenomenon of state ownership. From a static point of view, this is the case.But since the 1980s, at least more than a hundred countries have carried out a series of privatizations. We may think that no other country has done this except Eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union. Many developing countries are also moving towards marketization. The number and process involved in privatization are really admirable. Every country has carried out a series of reforms towards privatization in the past two decades. , The reason why more than 130 countries are doing the same thing is very illustrative.If it is state-run, then the state is both the maker and executor of the rules, and at the same time a participant in economic interests.How could there be such a good thing!How much private space is there?This is unreasonable in terms of the principle of avoidance of interests mentioned in economics and legal theory. ◎Reporter: You know that China used to be a country that was dominated by a planned economy and was only moving towards marketization for more than 20 years. It was not really calculated. In fact, it was not until the Third Plenary Session of the 14th Central Committee that That is to say, in 1994, China only established the market economy as the main reform direction. In this way, it only takes ten years. It may take a process to withdraw all state-owned enterprises from the field of competition within ten years. The so-called state Isn't that what the idea of ​​retreating from the people's progress means?But it takes time.But when it comes to this, I also have a question. In Russia, the degree of privatization should not be small, but now, has there been healthy competition in various fields in this country?When we can't see a good result, shouldn't we be more careful in our steps forward? Chen Zhiwu: The experience of Russia is actually not like this. There are many misunderstandings here. ◎Reporter: In China's information industry, the four giants are all state-owned. According to your theory, how do you think this industry will develop? Chen Zhiwu: There was an absurd discussion recently. Some people said that the four should be combined into two. The reason is that the telecom industry is too competitive and wastes too much.I think this is really a joke. These people have a little understanding of how profitable the telecommunications field is, and they should know that this industry not only cannot be merged, but should be further liberalized.For example, I would rather go back to the United States to make a call to China than to use my mobile phone to make a domestic call in China, because the call between people in China is 60 cents a minute, and the call from the United States to China is 4 cents per minute Points, the triangle is more than RMB, which is half cheaper than domestic ones.Do you think this is funny? In fact, the last telecom profits are monopoly profits provided by consumers. ◎Reporter: This company is owned by the state, so it is a good thing that the profits and taxes are given to the state? Chen Zhiwu: Have you ever imagined that corruption also provides a material base space? ◎Reporter: If you were any boss in the field of China Telecom, would you analyze the problem in this way? Chen Zhiwu: That won't happen. ◎Reporter: Then what kind of words will they say? Chen Zhiwu: I will try my best to convince the National Development and Reform Commission, other government departments and the media that the competition in China's telecommunications industry is too fierce and there is too much waste. At the same time, I will tell myself when I say this, that the competition has made me too hard.Because who wants to face these competitions, a little more rest and more profits are not good for me? ◎Reporter: This is very interesting. Chen Zhiwu: From the perspective of the interest groups he represents, he can only say so. If he doesn't say so, he should be replaced.In the interests of shareholders, he cannot speak out if he has other ideas. ◎Reporter: When he is doing these things, will there be a voice telling him that what he is doing now is against the direction of the development of the entire market economy, will it? Chen Zhiwu: No, he is not a savior, nor should he be, he must maximize his interests, he must stand on his interest group, and we cannot judge him by other moral standards. ◎Reporter: Economists always look at society from the perspective of interests. Is this biased?Chinese people evaluate many things more from a moral point of view.Is the economic perspective of developed countries dominating social evaluation?In developing countries, people use more ethics to evaluate. Chen Zhiwu: Yes, the evaluation of interests in American society is very common. ◎Reporter: Chinese society is not the case. We can be optimistic that many likes and dislikes are related to ethics. Chen Zhiwu: When it comes to ethics, during the debates caused by Lang Xianping in recent months, there is a sentence that has been circling in my mind that is "the past is hard to look back on", and another sentence is "the past is not as good as smoke".Because of the pain we see today caused by an underdeveloped society... In fact, people like me are relatively detached. In terms of life, besides teaching, I also own a hedge fund company. Of course I am not So rich, but okay.Recently, I have been very curious to understand how state-owned enterprises originated, and what caused some people to go crazy in Chinese history.The original nationalization process was far more unfair than the privatization process today. Some people today are grievous about the chances of privatization to make a fortune for many people. This is certainly true, but the property accumulated by many families over generations has suddenly become public ownership.It is very important for an individual to own property and private property rights. When a person has nothing and no minimum economic guarantee, no other rights or dignity can be discussed. You cannot have the foundation to fight for your own rights. For survival and family , you have to be at the mercy of others.When you own some of your own property, you have your own independence, you are autonomous.Just because the nationalization of the Soviet Union was very cruel, the privatization process today will also make some people and some families bear some costs, because after the big joke of nationalization in the past, we have almost no non-oscillation s solution.Therefore, there are many problems in the process of marketization today that need to be viewed historically, and they must be experienced. It is the only way for people to regain their autonomy. In the Russia you mentioned, most companies leave 40% of the shares to their employees, some to locals, and the rest to ordinary people across the country, which is very even.One share per person is not an economically efficient arrangement, because people are born with equal rights but not equal abilities. In a market economy, the most capable people will have the most resources and may contribute the most to society.In fact, Russia's economic reform started very late, and its economic growth rate has been relatively stable in recent years. Therefore, it is difficult to say that Russia's non-reform is like China's reform method. ◎Reporter: Then how do you evaluate it? Chen Zhiwu: From the perspective of the institutional capital I mentioned, it has great potential. There are still some very large macro uncertainties in Chinese society today. These uncertainties are likely to wipe out the achievements of many years of hard work. .Then again, many people don’t know that the Soviet Union’s large-scale nationalization movement began in 1928, and then there was a period of rapid growth for more than two decades. At that time, the annual growth rate of the Soviet Union’s GDP was 12% and 13%. A debate arose around the world as to whether a market economy or a state-owned economy was better, especially in the developing countries of the third world, which believed that the Soviet Union had provided them with a reliable model, but later found that history was the beginning. made a big joke.Therefore, it is now too soon to make a conclusion about Russia, and the conclusion may be too early for the time being.Of course, I hope that Chinese society will not experience too much vibration. ◎Reporter: I think the institutionalization you mentioned is very valuable to China's current situation in many fields. In fact, many people have seen it, but they don't have such a deep understanding. Chen Zhiwu: Yes, institutionalized construction is too important for long-term stability. ◎Reporter: When you talk about the institutionalization of the news media, you often only mention the field of finance and economics. This is very interesting. In China, the economy and other fields are almost integrated. Chen Zhiwu: This is entirely a choice made due to China's specific environment today.Just because the specific environment did me a favor, I was able to study the role of the news media from an economic point of view. ◎Reporter: When many people mention the difference between China and the United States, they always say that the United States puts more emphasis on individualism, while China puts more emphasis on collectivism. Chen Zhiwu: In fact, in China, it is not enough if you do not emphasize collectivism.Because financial securities are underdeveloped, individualism is impossible to realize, because if there is no economic foundation such as developed financial securities, people have to rely on family, clan, and society to replace the role that financial securities should play.There are four kinds of risks that are very important in a person's life. One is future uncertain events, such as natural disasters and man-made disasters. When these small probability events occur, you need help, that is, the demand for insurance. You need medical insurance, natural disaster insurance , property insurance (such as housing insurance, fire insurance), car insurance, etc.; the second is one-time large expenses, such as building a house, getting a wife and daughter, buying a car, etc., because these will affect your own economy and There is a big but one-off shock to financial resources, and you need to borrow.These two are the most basic.The third is retirement, and the fourth is investment and entrepreneurship.The individualism I mentioned does not work in China because without the support of these four major financial and securities industries, you have to rely on the family and some kind of collective to play the role of insurance, lending, pension and start-up financing. In other words, the family and the collective are actually a kind of economic cooperation.Without a well-developed formal insurance industry, lending industry, pension fund industry, and capital market, you cannot leave alternative informal financial organizations such as families and collectives.So we will see that in the rural areas of China, it is relying on adoptive children to look after the old, and relying on offspring and relatives to avoid various uncertainties in a person's future. ◎Reporter: The maintenance of this kind of thing depends on ethics and morality. Chen Zhiwu: I mean that only when the financial market is relatively developed can conditions for a strong individualistic culture be provided, and then individualism is feasible. ◎Reporter: China's financial market is not very developed today, but individualism is developing well in Chinese cities. Chen Zhiwu: It is still not possible in most Chinese societies now, because in cities they have their own property, insurance, pensions, etc., so in cities people can no longer regard their children as their own investment in the future, Insurance for the future.This is due to the different degrees of modernization in China's rural areas and cities that determine the difference in this concept.In Chinese culture, "the parents are here, don't travel far away" refers to this meaning. If my children go to New York and are so far away from me, what will happen to my investment?What about my pension?What about my health insurance?In order to ensure that the investment of the parents in the offspring and the investment in the family can be rewarded, from the perspective of protecting the rights and interests of investors, you must have a system to protect the rights and interests of the parents as investors. After falling ill, there is no one to rely on. However, traditional China does not emphasize formal justice, so it can only be protected by morality and ethics. The way morality and ethics function is accomplished by guilt, not by external systems.Therefore, when your son is still young, you must instill in him a lot of family moral values, emphasizing the glory of the ancestors, so that he will feel deeply guilty when he does not listen to you, when he is unfilial, and when he is unrighteous. Spontaneously feel guilty so much that you can’t help yourself, so you don’t have to worry about whether your investment in him is reliable, and you may have your pension and insurance.Therefore, many institutional cultures are endogenous to the society and change with changes in economic activities, and culture in turn constrains or promotes economic development.We often say that Chinese culture has been maintained for thousands of years, which shows how powerful it is.In fact, it is not surprising that it has been maintained for thousands of years, because there has not been much change in transportation and communication in the past few thousand years, and no technological changes such as trains, automobiles, airplanes, telegraphs, and telephones have changed society so much. The scope of economic activities is also very small, and traditional culture can certainly last for thousands of years. ◎Reporter: But in this way, it is difficult for children to go far. When generations of people make such demands on future generations, we can see that each generation will not maximize the value of its own individual life.Interesting, in this way, you are explaining the difference between individuals and groups. Chen Zhiwu: In this way, the efficiency achieved by each generation will be compromised, and each generation will not be able to realize its potential.Therefore, with financial means, everyone's potential can be fully realized.Why are countries like the United States so productive?This is an important reason. ◎Reporter: I would like to ask you, what was the situation of individualism in the United States before financial development? Chen Zhiwu: This is a very good question. Around 1800, the United States was almost engaged in agriculture.Today, with a high degree of modernization, the agricultural population only accounts for 2%.Some people think that the reason why the Great Depression of 1929 had such a big impact on the United States is that the United States was still a relatively traditional society in the middle of the nineteenth century. At that time, finance was not yet developed, and most American families lived in In the vicinity, the development is maintained by providing financial guarantees among the families in the family.During the period from 1850 to 1930, the industrialization of the United States increased population mobility. After the increase, the family mutual assistance that Americans originally relied on became more and more difficult in terms of geographical scope and other aspects, and the mutual assistance efficiency was not enough. The insurance, credit, and social security at that time did not keep up. The disconnection of these two things made people after the Great Depression in 1930 basically weak in their ability to cope with the economic crisis. Therefore, why did the Great Depression bring so much to American society? This is one of the most important reasons for the big impact.Then why did Roosevelt pass a series of laws in 1933, 1934, and 1935 to provide various guarantees that society needs?Because this is the last guarantee that society can provide to people.The subsequent financial development can be seen as a necessary response of American society to the changes in social structure brought about by industrialization. ◎Reporter: After social population mobility increases, the fundamental changes to the social structure may come too quickly. This is like the migration of more than 200 million migrant workers in China. After large-scale social group mobility, the corresponding Various systems must keep up, otherwise there will be many chain reactions, such as farmers' wages not getting back, education problems and a series of problems. Chen Zhiwu: This is what I said about the importance of system building, and this is also the fundamental difference between China today and China in the past. ◎Reporter: Speaking of this, I have a different point of view. You just said that finance brings the space and possibility of personalized development to society, but I think finance is a result, not a cause. The real reason is: personalized The wave was brought about by the industrial revolution.The wave of industrialization has broken the original social structure. Chen Zhiwu: Yes, after the disruption, the core of the family and the family disintegrated. This required finance to keep up. Later, the expansion of industrialization drove the development of the external financial market even more.Conversely, if it were not for the financial development of the United States, its individualism would be unlikely. ◎Reporter: Here I have a point of view. I think that such a large-scale industrialization process is missing in the development of Chinese society. I have been to rural areas in Japan, and the degree of industrialization can be seen in front of every house. .In fact, all developed countries have undergone the baptism of industrial civilization. The reforms brought to society by this baptism include not only the development of finance, but also cultural habits, such as proceduralization and rule of law. These things are related to industrialization.This is one of the reasons why the invisible system construction you mentioned today is difficult in the judicial field.When people believe more in power than in law, what they see is the power of the residual concept of feudal society and official standards in China. This kind of thing is very difficult to disappear without the impact of large-scale industrialization. Chen Zhiwu: That makes sense. ◎Reporter: At present, there is a big flow in China. This kind of flow is what we call migrant workers going to cities. There are more than 200 million people moving to cities across the country. This is unprecedented in the modern history of China. Phenomena, especially on such a large scale, there has been a group of people who have flowed since the reform and opening up. This group has 580,000 people in more than 20 years. Changes are only seen over a longer historical period.But the scale of this group is too small compared to migrant workers, so I think, if anyone pays attention to the changes brought about by migrant workers in Chinese society, this is a very big and very interesting topic.But this is still not the same as the wave of industrialization, because it has not been spread throughout China. Chen Zhiwu: In fact, I have seen many social changes brought about by this kind of mobility.Many of them are reflected in the details, which can only be realized by careful observation. ◎Reporter: After such a large group flow, many original things have actually been broken, but the problem is that new things have not been established after the break. Chen Zhiwu: Many things that were maintained in the countryside are gradually disappearing. ◎Reporter: I have another question here. I always feel that compared with developed countries, China’s social development has fallen behind a historical stage, which is industrial civilization. So in a society like China, where the starting point is different from that of developed countries To carry out the privatization process you mentioned, whether it is appropriate also needs to be marked with a question mark?This is one of the biggest features of the so-called market economy with Chinese characteristics. Chen Zhiwu: In fact, there is no difference between Americans and Chinese, but the situation we see today is due to the different stages of social development and different systems.These are all acquired and man-made, and this kind of difference is not a difference in the essence of human beings.Because the values ​​​​of societies at different stages of development are not the same.In fact, there is a big difference between western China and cities like Beijing and Shanghai.Privatization is not a problem, because the most primitive and longest-lasting form in human history is the private system, and the longest and oldest organizational form of enterprises is also private ownership.Because this is the closest to human nature, this principle applies to all social forms.